Author Topic: Kindergarten Lessons  (Read 20780 times)

Offline kappa

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2014, 11:37:43 AM »
First I do not know any place where we have flamed anyone or any opinion. If we have please show me and I will apologize. I can show you many places where people accuse HTC of behavior like you are doing now, that we simply do not do.

It has nothing to do with a dissenting opinion. It is more akin to marching with a sign into a business saying you do not like something the company is doing, and then expect that they would not ask you to either get rid of the sign or leave. Again it is about behavior , not an opinion.

HiTech





I'm not saying you guys flamed anyone, sorry for not making that more clear.. I agree HTC is accused wrongly from time to time..

Some were asked to remove this and that from their profiles and on every occasion those request were honored... The avatar in question made no mention of HTC.. No warning for avatars, afaik, was given and at the time and no written forum policy on the matter.. It appears a stand was taken against a group opinion over an avatar.. How such a trival thing could affect HTC and cause this action I don't understand.
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Offline Copprhed

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2014, 11:49:34 AM »
There are some cases where the customer is NOT always right. Their gripe about the 12 hour rule is acceptable, in the right place and with the understanding that the FINAL decision about is is in HiTech's hands. That means if the answer is no, or NOTHING, (which means the answer is no), that's pretty much the end of the discussion. Some people may have been able to get what they want in life by badgering, and this is the end result....trying to badger HiTech into caving. They forced his hand. Now the topic is verboten. The protest is verboten. Adults would understand that and move on. This is NOT "Occupy the AH BBS". Skuzzy and HiTech have my support and gratitude for making a great game. Do what you have to do.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2014, 11:51:06 AM »
I'm not saying you guys flamed anyone, sorry for not making that more clear.. I agree HTC is accused wrongly from time to time..

Some were asked to remove this and that from their profiles and on every occasion those request were honored... The avatar in question made no mention of HTC.. No warning for avatars, afaik, was given and at the time and no written forum policy on the matter.. It appears a stand was taken against a group opinion over an avatar.. How such a trival thing could affect HTC and cause this action I don't understand.

What do you think was in the mind of the instigators of the avatar when they made it?

HiTech

Offline Pepprr

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2014, 11:55:30 AM »
Do you really not see the difference of posting on topic, and posting something with the intent of purposely breaking the rules with an off topic post? And change ups first post was even ignored by me knowing that part of it was simply letting off steam, but then a few hours later he does the exact same thing with a different statement? It is at that time I moderated them. Changups only intent was to "Ill show them that I will do what I want" in a way that he thought he could just push the edge and get away with it.

Such behavior  is what this thread is about in the first place.

As far as disliking the group, I never even heard of the AOP until a few weeks ago when they started putting the free hilbilly in there signatures and we had to tell them to remove the item.
Hilbly was removed for starting a web page whos only purpose was to disparage HTC. Well if he dislikes our policies that much, after we spent 1/2 hour on the phone with him, and do our best to explain our policies. And will not let the issue be settled, he really does not give us much choice.

Does this sound similar to the current avatars?

Then the same group after knowing that trying to protest something with your signature is not acceptable, attempted the same tactic with their avatars protesting the 12 hour rule. Those avatars spawned this thread in a hope that we would not have to confront them again directly telling them to take down the avatars.

It didn't work, or they chose to ignore this
People are free to posts complaints and wishes. But when they start using a "Bulling" / berating manner, start interjecting their desire/wish into many threads, they do not give us a choice but to deal with the behavior.

So I ask you a question.

Why do you think changeup made those two post in this thread?

HiTech



By all means, I see your point.  I even said in my post..."I can see both sides of the situation and don't totally agree with either."  

What I don't understand is how this...

No they don't.  I play in the IL-2 communities (all three games) and they are not like I see here at all.  They are much more civil.  Folks have their differences of opinion, but nothing like the whining, temper tantrums and snotty stuff I see here.  I don't play the arcade games like WarThunder or World of Tanks or fantasy games and maybe it's there, but this board goes into the ditch far more often and deeper than any other flight sim community I've seen.  AH is a great game with a lot of great folks playing it but the obnoxious few are hurting the game and the image of the game reflected here.

Halo46 shouldn't stop playing when the obnoxious few can be easily weeded out.  Might be the best advertising dollars Hitech has ever spent, that being the lost revenue from a little pruning.

does not break a rule also and is allowed to continue.  Is it because he is staying on topic? In your words..."But when they start using a "Bulling" / berating manner, start interjecting their desire/wish into many threads, they do not give us a choice but to deal with the behavior."  That is what got me upset.  

being targeted indirectly is how this comes across.

With all respect,
 :salute

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Offline ROC

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2014, 11:59:26 AM »
I think you should all join the scenario and shoot each other.  It is a game, after all  :D  It's supposed to be fun.
ROC
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #140 on: May 09, 2014, 12:01:28 PM »
 :aok :aok :salute :cheers:
I think you should all join the scenario and shoot each other.  It is a game, after all  :D  It's supposed to be fun.

Offline hitech

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #141 on: May 09, 2014, 12:07:57 PM »

does not break a rule also and is allowed to continue.  Is it because he is staying on topic? In your words..."But when they start using a "Bulling" / berating manner, start interjecting their desire/wish into many threads, they do not give us a choice but to deal with the behavior."  That is what got me upset.  

Because it is in no way a personal attack. It is not an ad hominem argument,and is speaking directly about actions & behaviors.

Difference as  example.

These whining and sniveling dweebs cause all the problems. (Personal attack)

This whining and sniveling behavior causes all the problems.

They are very very different statements.

HiTech

Offline Pepprr

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2014, 12:15:59 PM »
Because it is in no way a personal attack. It is not an ad hominem argument,and is speaking directly about actions & behaviors.

Difference as  example.

These whining and sniveling dweebs cause all the problems. (Personal attack)

This whining and sniveling behavior causes all the problems.

They are very very different statements.

HiTech

Ah, my mistake...it is ok if the attack is on a group of people but not an individual person.
I just assumed it broke rule #4
4- Flamebaiting, flaming, being abusing, being disrepectful, trolling, spamming or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed. If you cannot make a positive contribution to the thread, then just stay out of it.
Thank you for responding
 :salute


I think you should all join the scenario and shoot each other.  It is a game, after all  :D  It's supposed to be fun.

 :aok  I agree..  :)

~AoM~

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My vids :)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk0db9fARH0

Offline lunatic1

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #143 on: May 09, 2014, 12:17:01 PM »
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #144 on: May 09, 2014, 12:20:36 PM »
What do you think was in the mind of the instigators of the avatar when they made it?

HiTech

Quick answer?

They don't like the 12 hour rule.

People like their freedom.

Hell, I don't like the 12 hour rule myself, and as such, my playing time has decreased dramatically since it's inception.  I have been unemployed for the past few months and yet, even with the free time at my disposal, I haven't had much desire to play.  I rarely log on and, when I do, it is usually for FSO.  If I were to be quite frank, I would say that, when and if I play, I do so more for the opportunity to bond with friends than I do for loyalty to the game itself right now.  I suppose that it is one of the many facets of the game that I am willing to keep shelling-out my $15/month for, even though it cuts into what meager savings I have right now, considering I am without income at the present time.

Some would call that fiscally irresponsible or even plain stupid.  I haven't really analyzed it that thoroughly perhaps out of fear of doing so, I would probably agree and discontinue paying for something I rarely use...
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Offline hitech

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #145 on: May 09, 2014, 12:27:14 PM »
Ah, my mistake...it is ok if the attack is on a group of people but not an individual person.
I just assumed it broke rule #4
4- Flamebaiting, flaming, being abusing, being disrepectful, trolling, spamming or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed. If you cannot make a positive contribution to the thread, then just stay out of it.
Thank you for responding
 :salute


 :aok  I agree..  :)

Do not put words in my mouth, where in my post did I say anything in any way hinted at implied or eluded to the concept of a group being different then an individual.

HiTech

Offline FLS

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #146 on: May 09, 2014, 12:30:58 PM »
Ah, my mistake...it is ok if the attack is on a group of people but not an individual person.

It is not a specific group of people that's ok. It's a category of people that's ok.  For example, "obnoxious few" is a category of people based on behavior. It doesn't name anyone as included in that group but it's still useful to use to discuss behavior and consequences.

Offline Gman

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2014, 12:36:03 PM »
Quote
What would you do with a customer who has sent PM's to people using fowl and abusive language and is complained about by the recipient of the PM's? Then this customer is warned and continues with the same actions?

I would agree with you 100% in this instance, but this isn't what I'm talking about.  Grizz post is an excellent example.  Where was the abusive language, repeated over and over to other customers there?  He may have been repetitive, even provocative, but where was the clear violation of the rules within that?  This is specifically the problem IMO - there was no abusive language, or anything fowl in his, or many other players posts which have gotten them either suspensions, PNG's, or often both.  That is the route of the argument I think.

The first couple or few years you had this BBS HT, I can recall it getting pretty heated, I said many stupid things myself looking back, during the election fiasco of 2000, things that would absolutely have gotten me a PNG now.  Had that happened, I wouldn't even be here.  How many others since that time who have gotten bent feelings over being PNG'd on the bbs system have left the actual game itself?  Only you know that I suppose, but it does happen, nobody can argue that, and based on Skuzzy's own words, the "inevitable angry PM, email, phone call, then cancellation" in that order, it must happen often enough for him to take note and even say that.  I guess the 64$ question is, is it worth it to HTC to lose those customers in order to have a bbs system as it exists now.  I suppose one of the things I've never understood is how the bbs when it was near free for all back in the beginning, as compared to now, affects HTC so far as overall business goes.  I also understand you probably can't or won't answer that, and I can also understand why.  All I've ever hoped is that things would be arrow pointing up here, as opposed to down, but lately - it just looks like  down from the odd times I've popped into the arenas to see the numbers, as well as the number of posters here.  I hate down arrow.  A lot.  I want to see up arrow, which is why I'm still here, as are hundreds of others to be sure, waiting to see what comes next.  I still think time spent here worrying over words, not deeds, in the bbs, is time nobody benefits from.  As you said, it's your responsibility, your company, I fully respect that, and this is just my opinion, that's all, I'm happy to exist under any rules or perception of their application, so long as there is hope for the future.  I personally believe people will be so busy and happy with a new product once it's out that a lot of these negative waves will just filter away on their own. I've seen that happen with other products often enough.

Offline Bear76

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2014, 12:36:22 PM »
:aok Im with this guy  ;)

What a shock.

Offline hitech

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Re: Kindergarten Lessons
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2014, 12:48:16 PM »
I would agree with you 100% in this instance, but this isn't what I'm talking about.  Grizz post is an excellent example.  n. I've seen that happen with other products often enough.

Grizz has been band before for the specific case I sighted. We were gracious enough to give him changes again, but he was constantly pushing the edge of acceptable behavior. The avatar was just the final straw.  The other people are simply either 2 or 1 week suspensions.

Quote
The first couple or few years you had this BBS HT, I can recall it getting pretty heated,

It got so bad we had to shut down the bbs for periods of time to get peoples attention.

Quote
I personally believe people will be so busy and happy with a new product once it's out that a lot of these negative waves will just filter away on their own. I've seen that happen with other products often enough.

On this we agree, long development cycles , like we are in right now, always create more unrest.



HiTech