F-35

[GScholz]

Hans Henrik "Hasse" Wind, the leading Brewster ace, shot down among other types I-16s, Hurricanes, Spitfires and Yak-1s in his Brewster.

[Karnak]

A squadron of Yaks vs a squadron of Zekes. Would depend on the players. Yaks can leave the fight at any time if cought in a bad spot, but also force the Zekes to fight from a disadvantage. Same as the Americans did in the real war. Give the Zekes to some furballers (Samurai) and the Yaks to a dedicated B&Z squad... Best the Zekes can hope for is a draw as the Yaks leave to fight another day.

There was an AvA setup that used to be run that had the Japanese facing the USAAF over New Guinea, P-38Gs, P-40Es and P-47D-11s against Ki-61s and A6M5bs (subbing for A6M3s).  The A6M5b cleaned up in there every time even though the P-38 and P-47 could, as you note, leave whenever they chose.  When the A6M3 was added the results were a lot more balanced.

As to Hans Wind, I-16s and Hurricanes aren't particularly impressive and "Spitfires" probably means Mk Vs.  How do you think the I-16-24 would do against A6M2s?  The I-16 didn't exactly give a good account of itself in Chinese hands when facing A5Ms and A6Ms.

[GScholz]

It's not the planes fault if the pilot does not fly it right. Why are we even considering AH players?

The I-16 entered service in 1934.

[Karnak]

It's not the planes fault if the pilot does not fly it right. Why are we even considering AH players?

The I-16 entered service in 1934.

Speed is an advantage, but it is not a simplistic "You have a faster plane, you win" metric like you are presenting.

I-16-24 did not enter service in 1934 and you included it on your list of Hans Wind's kills implying that you considered it to be in that "Better than the Japanese fighters" category.

[GScholz]

No I do not consider it a better plane than the Zeke. Just one type of fighter he shot down. Also "better than the Japanese fighters" is not my argument. My argument is that the Soviets were not "second tier" compared to the Japanese... The other enemy the Brewster faced.

[Karnak]

No I do not consider it a better plane than the Zeke. Just one type of fighter he shot down. Also "better than the Japanese fighters" is not my argument. My argument is that the Soviets were not "second tier" compared to the Japanese... The other enemy the Brewster faced.

The Soviets were second tier compared to the Japanese because they lacked an effective peacetime pilot training system, something that first tier nations such as the UK, Germany, the USA and Japan all had.  Japanese naval fighters were also fully competitive with the vast majority of western naval fighters in 1942, and sometimes superior. Would you want to face A6M2s flying a Skua, Roc or Barracuda?

[Changeup]

Soviet Yak-7 entered service in 1942.

(Image removed from quote.)


Safe to say the Japanese were not "first rate" by any measure. True their pilots were well trained, but they were tactically naive, something the Americans learned to exploit. Doesn't matter how well you're trained if you're trained to be an 18th century Samurai in a 20th century war.

Samurai was their heart and fighting spirit.  Samurai is not a style of fighting...it's a philosophical way of life.  It's tenets are timeless and we should be lucky enough to ever know that kind of commitment to anything in our lives, much less living our lives that way.

[GScholz]

Samurai was their heart and fighting spirit.  Samurai is not a style of fighting...it's a philosophical way of life.  It's tenets are timeless and we should be lucky enough to ever know that kind of commitment to anything in our lives, much less living our lives that way.

That's all good and fine, but it doesn't win wars.

[Changeup]

That's all good and fine, but it doesn't win wars.

It's not meant to win wars.  It's a warrior code.

[Vraciu]

Not sure how the Finns were facing Yak-7's, most of the reports I seen they were facing Polikarpov I-153 and I-16s. There were Mig-1 and Yak-1's generally, it wasn't until 1944 that the Finnish faced some of the better Russian fighters.
Not taking anything away from the Finns, but they generally did fly pretty decent aircraft, the B-239 wasn't all that bad - most of the Finns flew 109G2s and 109G6's which were pretty good aircraft.

Also take note, the Finnish only mostly flew interception missions, they could pick the battle and retreat as they wanted, unlike the russians.

Exactly. I-16s were their primary foe.  Once they started facing real airplanes they got their butts kicked and withdrew the Buffalo from front-line service.

[Karnak]

The Japanese were excessively trained into the WWI model of fighting, but that was not just due to Bushido.  Some forms of Bushido do encourage the 1v1 idea, but many dispense with it in favor of effective cooperative fighting.  The 1v1 stuff almost lost them Japan when the Mongols first invaded and the Japanese adapted, to a degree, based on that.  Only 10 years later the second Mongol invasion attempt faced a much nastier group of Japanese warriors.

[GScholz]

Exactly. I-16s were their primary foe.  Once they started facing real airplanes they got their butts kicked and withdrew the Buffalo from front-line service.

You continue to amaze me with your drivel. By the end of 1942 Hans Wind had shot down one I-15 (his first kill), two I-16, three Hurricanes, two Spitfires, three Yak-1s and three Il-2s for a total of 14 kills. All in the Brewster.

[Changeup]

Exactly. I-16s were their primary foe.  Once they started facing real airplanes they got their butts kicked and withdrew the Buffalo from front-line service.

This is not correct

[Gman]

As an aside and interesting factoid to some of this debate - I guy I know from my piping days, who plays with the World Champion Simon Fraser University Pipe Band, Jori Chisholm - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jori_Chisholm, is the grandson of the top scoring Finnish Ace Jorma Sarvanto - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorma_Sarvanto.   A few interesting stories passed down, I wish I had recorded them. 

That area of WW2 aerial warfare is a very interesting bit of the entire war.  Anyone recommend some decent books or material about it?

[Oldman731]

Safe to say the Japanese were not "first rate" by any measure. True their pilots were well trained, but they were tactically naive, something the Americans learned to exploit. Doesn't matter how well you're trained if you're trained to be an 18th century Samurai in a 20th century war.

Scholz, old friend, you're barking up the wrong tree here.  The 1939-42 Japanese pilots took on pilots from Russia, China, England, the US, Holland, Australia and probably some others I can't think of, and handily beat them all.  They were superb pilots in superb equipment.  As someone mentioned, their glory lasted only through the end of 1942, and after that most of them were gone.

- oldman