Author Topic: Stealth vs ECM  (Read 7240 times)

Offline GScholz

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2014, 10:08:28 AM »
Simple, but it works. They only need to track one single target you know ;)
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Offline bozon

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2014, 01:05:38 PM »
Simple, but it works. They only need to track one single target you know ;)
and only one target needs to make it lose track... ;)

There is a difference between Jamming and Spoofing.

Jam - is brute force lets send a strong signal that makes SNR so low that you can't determinate what is the signal - now I can go to the direction of the noise.

Spoofing is creating smart false signals - much harder - but when works much more efficient.
artik is generally correct, though jamming does not have to be a brute force noise screen, it can also mean fooling or confusing the radar to make it lose/ignore/miss the target. Spoofing is about creating false targets so instead of a target, the radar sees 50 targets. I'll just add that jamming and spoofing are the basic categories, each can be achieved in various ways to achieve various ends. Especially against tracking radars that need to predict the position of the target for the next beam it is possible to do some creative things. "Lock on Jam" will not work on the more sophisticated techniques.

Regarding the original debate - stealth is an all or nothing deal and carries a hefty price tag (both in design constraints and in actual $$). When the battle closes to under 10 miles, stealth is right out the window. ECM has a lot of gray in the sense that it can be effective at various levels. ECM is a lot simpler to install on the plane, enforce little design constraints, is a lot cheaper and can be upgraded. ECM is still useful even under 10 miles. Of course, nothing prevents a stealth plane from using ECM as well...
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Offline artik

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2014, 01:22:52 PM »
... Of course, nothing prevents a stealth plane from using ECM as well...

One of the reasons IAF required an ability to install their own ECM to F-35 despite clear resistance from Lockheed Martin.
(To be honest I have a feeling that once IAF receives F-35 it would replace half of LM avionics with its own and add many-many customized features to it)

One of the things I've read about  F-117, one of the reasons  F-117 was retired is due to fact that it related on stealth only for its protection remaining very vulnerable to other types of threats (like long wave radars that can be easily spoofed with ECM) of course the real reason would probably be known in some not so near future if at all.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2014, 01:57:25 PM »
One of the reasons IAF required an ability to install their own ECM to F-35 despite clear resistance from Lockheed Martin.
(To be honest I have a feeling that once IAF receives F-35 it would replace half of LM avionics with its own and add many-many customized features to it)
There are issues with that. One of the main reasons that IAF and the israeli industries got excited about the F35 is that the IAF is supposed to get his custom version of the F35, where many Israeli systems will be installed, or be ready for local installation right off of the production line. For the Israeli industries this is also an opportunity to sell some of their stuff to other foreign F35 buyers. There were lots of fears that the US industries will block custom components and indeed this seems to start happening.
Better stop here because if I speak my mind about the business models of US defense industries this will get me banned fast.

I didn't know the F117 was retired... Never liked that plane.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2014, 04:09:57 PM »
Quote
I didn't know the F117 was retired... Never liked that plane.

It was retired cause after a 27 year service life it would have cost to much to maintain and operate. It tooks tons of $$ to keep them flying we didnt want to spend while next Gen stealth was being developed. Why spend the money on the "old" F117 when you are fielding F35s that are far more capable and have 1/3 the RCS?

The F117 and its highly accurate weapons scared the bejeezuz out of more then the Iraqis in Gulf 1. This airplane entered some of the most heavily defended air space in the world and took out whatever targets it wanted, and did so without a Loss. The Russian and Chinese watched in Horror and had to direct, and redirect, vast amounts of their wealth both to try and counter the threat it presented and to try and produce their own. That is the Legacy of the F117. A simple bomb dropper that changed warfare forever.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 04:49:35 PM »
It was retired cause after a 27 year service life it would have cost to much to maintain and operate. It tooks tons of $$ to keep them flying we didnt want to spend while next Gen stealth was being developed. Why spend the money on the "old" F117 when you are fielding F35s that are far more capable and have 1/3 the RCS?

The F117 and its highly accurate weapons scared the bejeezuz out of more then the Iraqis in Gulf 1. This airplane entered some of the most heavily defended air space in the world and took out whatever targets it wanted, and did so without a Loss. The Russian and Chinese watched in Horror and had to direct, and redirect, vast amounts of their wealth both to try and counter the threat it presented and to try and produce their own. That is the Legacy of the F117. A simple bomb dropper that changed warfare forever.

Yup  :aok   The Nighthawk was a game changer, even with its modest performance.

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Offline Gman

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 11:05:14 PM »
The F117 shrunk the detection range of the mostly Soviet and French made defense radars in Iraq to the point where it was no longer an "integrated" defense network.  The circles of detection range shrunk enough to make huge gaps in what was prior to the F117 being around, an overlapping defensive grid.  I've heard some of the pilots say that the mission planning and route following system etc of the F117 was also a huge part of its success, being able to accurately penetrate through these gaps in radar and defense coverage.  

Considering the sheer number of radars, and they high quality of these systems at the time, the F117 performed in a most stellar fashion in 1991, and continued to do so many years after that, only losing one, and another taking a close near miss in the Kosovo theater ops area.  Just looking at the tiny fraction of aircraft sorties the F117 made up, and the huge numbers of high value targets that it took out, it's ridiculous to say anything against it.  One loss compared to how many hundreds, no make that thousands of targets eliminated?  

As others have pointed out, it was only retired due to the F22 and F35 being several orders of magnitude (apparently) less observable, in addition to also being true "fighters", something the F117 was not.  The cost of maintaining a platform that was now easily outclassed by newer aircraft is pointless in these times of $ crunch.


Barret Tillman wrote an interesting book called "Warriors" back in 1991 or so.  He was a fighter pilot, from the F8 Crusader community, one of the last "gunfighters", and being from that community, he was of the opinion that radar, ecm, all that stuff ranked far down the ladder in air to air combat next to a fighters performance so far as thrust/weight ratio, acceleration, turn rate/radius, visibility (size/eyeball, not RCS), simplicity (sorties per day possibly generated), and a good cannon and heat seeking armament.  He wrote that radar missiles, even the fancy ones like the Amraam/Adder/AAM4/Etc, were mainly used to gain a better position or deny the enemy one, and that most of the killing even in the advanced age of stealth, radar, ecm, and fire and forget radar missiles, would always be done with heat seeking missiles and cannon.  He felt that radar, ecm, stealth, all that electronic warfare related stuff would just end up cancelling each other out, and it would come down to eyeballs, seat of the pants, and heat seeker/cannon fights because of that.  It's an interesting take, like I said, it was 20 years ago he wrote the book, but he's spoken about this issue many times, and even today still feels it is somewhat a valid opinion.  Google some of it if anyone is interested, or check out the book, he builds an entire Air Force for a rich Arab state out of F20 Tigersharks, and most of them don't even have radar installed due to his beliefs and policy, which he weaves into the novel.  I don't necessarily subscribe to all his idea, but as I said, they are interesting, and based on his experience, I can see why he thinks that way - Fighter Mafia on steroids more or less.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 11:08:53 PM by Gman »

Offline bozon

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 01:37:47 AM »
Barret Tillman wrote an interesting book called "Warriors" back in 1991 or so.  
...
He wrote that radar missiles, even the fancy ones like the Amraam/Adder/AAM4/Etc, were mainly used to gain a better position or deny the enemy one, and that most of the killing even in the advanced age of stealth, radar, ecm, and fire and forget radar missiles, would always be done with heat seeking missiles and cannon.  He felt that radar, ecm, stealth, all that electronic warfare related stuff would just end up cancelling each other out, and it would come down to eyeballs, seat of the pants, and heat seeker/cannon fights because of that.
...
he builds an entire Air Force for a rich Arab state out of F20 Tigersharks, and most of them don't even have radar installed due to his beliefs and policy, which he weaves into the novel.
...
People imagine an air battle as two formations heading towards each other starting at 100 miles separation. This is not how real intense air war looks like - usually. The IAF still subscribes to the close, visual range fighting and indeed considers the BVR weapons as an "advantage" rather then the main weapons. The main reason is that the Israeli fronts are very short and the fighting is expected to get very intense. The Syrian border in the Golan Heights is only about 30 miles long and during day operations over 100 IAF aircraft are expected to operate there. Add to that the opponents planes and you get an air war an order of magnitude denser than the Iraqi desert. There will be so much radars, ECM and other tramsissions in that space that birds will probably get fried in the air.

In such an environment a fighter pilot that turns on his radar will see tens or aircraft, that is if he can see anything at all with all the interferences in the air. The rocks in the Golan Heights are notorious for giving a lot of radar echos which degrade radar performance even more, especially in low elevations. This makes BVR very difficult, especially if you do not want to shoot your friends. Engagements are likely to start already withing 20 miles and close into the 10 miles range very fast where optical weapons start to factor in.

Not every war will be as ideal as the Iraqi campaign. Learning the lessons of the past and preparing to win yesterdays war is a classic error.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 10:08:40 AM »
Active detection systems like radar will be obsolete in the not too distant future. Manned combat aircraft too for that matter. Radiating energy that reveals your position is no longer really viable in today's EW environment. It has been likened to searching for an enemy soldier at night using a flashlight. Passive detection systems will become increasingly important, and the new "stealth" will be masking your emissions as much as possible.
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Offline Charge

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 03:50:20 AM »
"It has been likened to searching for an enemy soldier at night using a flashlight."

Indeed. And add to that that the reflected energy needs to be high enough to be registered by your radar so if you can detect a target from 40 miles out your radiation is still detectable at range of 100 miles or more.

So in reality you radiation pattern is detectable from much higher ranges than you can detect even a big target, let alone a jet coming towards you with very small radar cross section.

Turning on you radar is like telling "Hey, here I am. Is there anybody there!?" and all the planes outside your range but inside your radiation cone will see you in their radar detectors before you even have a chance of knowing where they are.

Thus it is easy to understand why AWACS and ground radar systems with data links are so valuable and, of course, valuable targets as well.

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Offline bozon

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 12:58:21 PM »
Radiating energy that reveals your position is no longer really viable in today's EW environment. It has been likened to searching for an enemy soldier at night using a flashlight. Passive detection systems will become increasingly important, and the new "stealth" will be masking your emissions as much as possible.
Indeed. And add to that that the reflected energy needs to be high enough to be registered by your radar so if you can detect a target from 40 miles out your radiation is still detectable at range of 100 miles or more.

So in reality you radiation pattern is detectable from much higher ranges than you can detect even a big target, let alone a jet coming towards you with very small radar cross section.

Turning on you radar is like telling "Hey, here I am. Is there anybody there!?" and all the planes outside your range but inside your radiation cone will see you in their radar detectors before you even have a chance of knowing where they are.
Not really, this is not how it works.

Emissions from your plane announce your presence, but measuring your exact location and speed for the purpose of guided armament is not easy. Normally it takes triangulation from several displaced receivers to do it and it is still not very fast or accurate. Self defense ECM is reactive in most modes, and will not transmit unless it detects a transmission it was designed to act against. The best that the enemy can know is your rough direction and very rough estimate of range if he knows your system well enough. Since it is not likely that the enemy knows your ECM system very well, detecting its emission and identifying it will not be possible by other fighters - ground stations will do that. The purpose of self ECM is not to hide your presence, it is to prevent accurate tracking by weapon systems and radars.

If you want to hide your presence, the plane has to fly in complete electronic silence. This means no radio, no radar, no active ECM, no data-links. In normal planes this also requires flying at very low altitudes on a path that has be studied in advance and that breaks the line of sight from the main enemy search radars. Radars are more dense along the front, so such mission are also supported by ECM from other elements that degrade the detection performance of the defenders. A stealth plane may fly a more relaxed profile (they are also not perfectly stealthy from all directions), but it is as much blind and muted as any other plane in electronic silence.

Stealth helps, but is often not critical, and in many missions completely unrequited. Do you need a handful of expensive planes to do all these missions, or are you better served by a larger force of conventional planes? Stealth makes a real difference only on a small number of certain missions. These few missions are important, but replacing your entire airforce with stealth planes seems unwise.
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Offline Lucifer

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 05:42:09 PM »
Upcoming sats generation is designed to spot wannabe stealth aircrafts/boats : untill they manage to make aircrafts fly in a different dimension untill they fire, no object will be 100% stealth IRL it seems....

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Offline Gman

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 09:10:52 PM »
I wonder how good the new AESA radars are, like the set in the F22?  I've often read that they only need to radiate for quick busts of time, like miliseconds, and then rapidly switch off, so quick that many RWR don't even detect them, not to mention they hop frequencies often, and further confuse warning receiving equipment.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 09:35:02 PM »
More importantly Gman, each element on these phased arrays operate independently at random frequencies so their total output is difficult to tell apart from background noise. To third-world equipment they are all but undetectable and practically impossible to jam.
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Offline artik

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Re: Stealth vs ECM
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 01:32:32 AM »
More importantly Gman, each element on these phased arrays operate independently at random frequencies so their total output is difficult to tell apart from background noise.

First of all it isn't correct...

The radar still needs to form a beam - which is done by multiple sources working on the same frequencies on different phases - it is the plane physics (see interference).

However if you spread the signal across the frequencies you still get the accuracy and the resolution reduced - because the more sources you have the sharper the main lobe and the other way around.

The major advantage of AESA is that you can much easily change the frequencies and operate different parts of the radar on different frequencies - forming multiple beams at once (tracking different targets). This helps against the detectors that search for multiple peaks on the same frequencies - the typical RWR.

But yet you need to generate a strong signal that its power reduced is 1/d^2 for RWR while the radar itself receives the signal with 1/d^4 where is d is the distance between the radar and the target - so RWR always has an edge over the radar.

Bottom line AESA is LPI for older RWR - they also would be harder to spoof because it can change direction & frequency for each pulse...

But saying that "each element operates independently at random frequencies" is just incorrect.
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