Author Topic: Convergence  (Read 2744 times)

Offline bustr

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 12:10:04 PM »
The default convergence for wing mounted guns in our game is the closest to real life for the horizontal ballistics.

Problem is, such as with American rides, the gunsight LoS should be left the same in most cases while only the horizontal converging point changed. The P51D is a good example. The K14 had two elevation settings. High and Low. These were for the expected role of fighter or fighter bomber, not if you wanted to furball at 400 and closer or pick from 600 and farther out. The relationship of the ballistic arch for the 50 cals stayed pretty much constant with the horizontal convergence being altered.

Our FW-A series is a good example. The default horizontal ballistic arch relationship to the Revi LoS is very close to real life. The horizontal convergence isn't. The wing root 20mm are 325 too short, while the outboard 20mm are 100 too short. And if you pull them out to match the harmonization chart for the FW-A series, you lower the bore angle of the cannons as you pull the horizontal convergence out to 400 and 600.

A lot of misunderstanding about the convergence settings by our player community, has created some interesting urban mythology about gunnery in the game.

You gents really should hardstand your fighters off the edge of some of the cliffs offline and actually look at the relationship at datum line 0 azimuth and your ballistic arch\LoS, and IP on the target at range. How many of you expected to see with the P51D at 300conv the 600yd drop was -43.2in versus 600conv the drop at 600 was -205.2in?

In real life the datum line azimuth was adjusted slightly nose down to harmonize the guns for the average expected combat speed at 15,000ft. Or some variation on this.

 
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 12:23:18 PM »
I'm thinking the guns would have to be pointed up a little bit to all converge at 500 yards, so that shots at 200 or 300 are on a higher part of the bullet arc.

While that is the common assumption (and is true for hand/shoulder aimed/fired weapons) that is untrue of wing-mounted guns.

The opposite is in reality true; the guns need to be pointed higher to converge at 200 (or 300) yards, and pointed lower to converge at 500 yards.

And once again, this is true for wing-mounted guns, but nose- mounted guns will follow suit much more closely with what we think of as "normal" due to our familiarity with pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc., which all have the barrel aligned much closer to the LoS.

This is due to the fact that the LoS is only an inch or two above the barrel with conventional firearms, and 50-60 inches above the barrel with wing-mounted guns.

I pointed this out with a bunch of screen shots in a thread a few years ago, but don't have time to do a search right now. The info is here on the BBS if you care to do a search though...
MtnMan

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Offline bustr

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 02:57:47 PM »
I'm not sure how close to real gun and gunsight harmonizing our hanger app is. Since in many cases the gunsight LoS and the effective bore angle are lowered as we choose longer range horizontal convergence.

Basic wing gun harmonizing was for achieving the greatest amount of visibility over the nose of the fighter through the gunsight. This was limited by the maximum allowable elevation adjustment of the mounting cradles for the wing guns. Real world gunsights didn't have a Page_Up button that could move the reticle up to the top of the reflector plate to let you look over the nose while not changing the effective bore angle of the guns at the same time. Raising the gun elevation to max accomplished a clear LoS to the maximum combat effective range of the guns which was about 1200ft while allowing LoS to 2000ft. Then "harmonizing" the gunsight LoS to the bullet trajectory and maximum combat effective range 1200ft.

The next step was creating area patterns at the effective range to maximize the effect of the shot pattern. Opposed to shooting a rifle where you want to minimize your shot pattern at range as small as possible. This is where horizontal convergence comes in and minor variations in the effective bore angle. The secondary purpose for raising the guns elevation as high as possible, was that the gunsight LoS became effective for aiming the guns to 2000ft if the pilot needed to shoot that far. Horizontal convergence was to create a high probability hit zone at a "known range" to which the pilot aimed by pointing the pipper at the con and allowing for lead in Mils. It was only at longer distance, if at all, any bullet drop compensation in Mils was needed. Pilots had to be able to quickly rough estimate divisions of their main ring in terms of Mils. At least we don't get washed out of the game for failing gunnery ground school tests over Mil calculations with a 101Mil ring at range.   
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline TonyJoey

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2014, 07:41:40 PM »
While that is the common assumption (and is true for hand/shoulder aimed/fired weapons) that is untrue of wing-mounted guns.

The opposite is in reality true; the guns need to be pointed higher to converge at 200 (or 300) yards, and pointed lower to converge at 500 yards.

And once again, this is true for wing-mounted guns, but nose- mounted guns will follow suit much more closely with what we think of as "normal" due to our familiarity with pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc., which all have the barrel aligned much closer to the LoS.

This is due to the fact that the LoS is only an inch or two above the barrel with conventional firearms, and 50-60 inches above the barrel with wing-mounted guns.

I pointed this out with a bunch of screen shots in a thread a few years ago, but don't have time to do a search right now. The info is here on the BBS if you care to do a search though...

I thought about exactly what you said after I had posted and left this morning. You are 100% correct, as the LOS is the key difference and the err in my thinking. Thank you.  :aok

Offline mtnman

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2014, 09:26:13 PM »
I pointed this out with a bunch of screen shots in a thread a few years ago, but don't have time to do a search right now. The info is here on the BBS if you care to do a search though...

Here's the link to the thread which has screenshots of the effects of various convergence settings.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html

Once you understand how the arc of the bullet is effected by altering your convergence, you'll actually note that the bottom image in the convergence picture posted by ImaDot is actually kind of misleading, and potentially inaccurate...
MtnMan

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Offline FLS

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2014, 09:37:02 PM »
That's a nice well illustrated lesson Mtnman.  :aok

Offline Naughty

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2014, 10:55:07 PM »
deleted,  my bad
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:08:08 PM by Naughty »
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2014, 12:11:53 AM »
That's a nice well illustrated lesson Mtnman.  :aok


Wish I had found that thread a year ago.  I did all that testing and offline shooting at the target myself for the VF-17 gunnery course.  Good to see it coincides exactly with my results and information. In fact, discussing convergence and the bullet stream, exactly as covered in those screen shots, is about the first half-hour of my gunnery course!  

It's also one of the reasons I use the Corsair for the course, as its ballistics are a little more quirky compared to other 50-cal packages; the greater vertical separation between the gun-bore and the LOS has a more dramatic effect on the ballistic arc inside and beyond convergence in the Hog, as compared to the Pony or Jug 50-cals.

Good stuff.

<S>
Ryno
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 12:21:22 AM by Kingpin »
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Offline bustr

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2014, 04:51:25 PM »
Here's the link to the thread which has screenshots of the effects of various convergence settings.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html

Once you understand how the arc of the bullet is effected by altering your convergence, you'll actually note that the bottom image in the convergence picture posted by ImaDot is actually kind of misleading, and potentially inaccurate...

If you hardstand with the main gear slightly down a cliff face to make the datum line 0 azimuth or somewhere inside of 17.8Mil nose low of the datum line to reproduce AoA at 15,000 at combat speed. The datum line is the horizontal red line on the target equal to "0" degree when you don't use azimuth in the target command. You will get a very different out come for the F4u. I posted that earlier with the convergence of all guns set to 300. During auto level flight testing, you slow the fighter down with long firing bursts while trying to create good looking dispersion blobs for screen shots. Gets even worse 20k and above trying to test for max range.

Hard standing the fighter with the engine off, you can blaze away until the cows come home and not change the AoA. It takes a bit of practice easing the main gear down a cliff face, head down in the cockpit zoomed in on the artificial horizon first, trying to set it level. Then the second place to check is from F3 using Numpad_2 with the target set between 3-4yds so your spinner or prop hub just pokes through.

One degree in terms of the prop hub doesn't look like much. At 17.8Mil, at your convergence point say 300yds. About 160ft of missing from your bore line if it were a laser cannon. But, since your gunsight and ballistic arch is harmonized, you are aiming about 6 standard Mk8 (3Mil) center dots high at 300yards. Hitech has programed your nose noticeably raising from sustained firing of wing guns. I've seen 5Mil, while sustained fire will slow your plane down in auto level raising the nose even more.

I wish listed once for a hardstand gunnery testing app or location a long time ago. 

bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Schatzi

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2014, 05:56:52 PM »
21 is only half the truth.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2014, 05:57:35 PM »
Look who's there...  :old:  :rock
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Offline Schatzi

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2014, 06:11:37 PM »
Im kinda all theory and no go.... not sure id even get my Hurr off the ground. Damn work leaves me no time to play. But I just dropped by and couldnt let that convergence discussion leave be... flying a Mk1 it was kind of a main thing.... try shoot something with a Mk1 set to 400 ^^

PS: Where the heck did my Casper go ?
21 is only half the truth.

Offline FLS

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2014, 06:42:19 PM »
Schatzi!    :D

Offline mtnman

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2014, 10:28:24 PM »
If you hardstand with the main gear slightly down a cliff face to make the datum line 0 azimuth or somewhere inside of 17.8Mil nose low of the datum line to reproduce AoA at 15,000 at combat speed. The datum line is the horizontal red line on the target equal to "0" degree when you don't use azimuth in the target command. You will get a very different out come for the F4u. I posted that earlier with the convergence of all guns set to 300. During auto level flight testing, you slow the fighter down with long firing bursts while trying to create good looking dispersion blobs for screen shots. Gets even worse 20k and above trying to test for max range.


That's not the method I use for my testing, and I don't experience the issues you mention.

First of all, I'm not really interested in the AoA at various speeds, because what I'm testing is the effect of various convergence settings at various ranges.  Tossing varying AoA into the picture just adds another variable, and added confusion.

Second, since (while fighting) I'm generally not limiting myself to firing at certain speeds, or at dead-level flight attitude, I don't see any value in working to match specific AoA or speeds.  IMO, there's more value in learning what the bullets are doing in as static an environment as possible.

To do that, I think the greatest value can be drawn from the testing only if the pipper is sitting dead-center in the dot-target.  That's easy to achieve in auto-level, by adjusting the throttle to control AoA, and giving the plane time to stabilize at whatever speed puts that pipper (and allows it to stay) dead-center in the target.  I use lots of zoom to verify that.  I don't really care if the plane is flying at X, y, or z AoA, as long as the pipper remains centered on the target.

Next, there's no sustained firing involved in my testing, so I don't have the slowing-effect of firing the guns to worry about.  Once again, that's just extra variables thrown in to confuse the results...  Instead, I fire in MANY short bursts, giving time between bursts to ensure I'm staying at a stable speed, and my pipper is remaining locked on the target center.  My method is more like firing multiple shots from a bench-rested rifle on the range to achieve tight groups.  The only difference is that in my "single-shot" world in the fighter a small sprinkle of bullets goes downrange, rather than one bullet at a time.  The groups you see in my screenshots may each have been a result of 20 or more extremely brief trigger-squeezes, all aimed at the same spot, and fired at the same speed.

A hardstand would be nice (but of extremely limited value to players) and I think the whole cliff thing is a lot more effort than is required to learn what this type of experiment has to teach.



I think that beyond the straight/level testing, it's good to know how various attitudes of flight will effect the trajectory of rounds fired, but it's exceedingly difficult to see those in controlled experiments in-game because the lack of autopilot adds so many variable to the puzzle as to hopelessly confuse the results (for most pilots at least).  While it's important to know how bullet trajectory "behaves" in the near-perfect straight and level world, it's also important to know how things change when we fire in combat.

This chart is a pretty good representation of how banking affects things:




And once you point your nose up a few degrees, you start affecting the shape of the trajectory as well; once you're firing vertically, there's essentially no trajectory at all (the bullets just go straight up, and then fall straight back down, if we don't have wind or rotational drift modeled).  Bullets fired horizontally will display a more curved trajectory (within working ranges), while bullets fired upwards (or downwards) will fly a "flatter", less-curved path (within working ranges).



However, if we fire straight up in the game, our guns are actually aimed beyond vertical, and that has an affect as well...  The bullets will cross the line of sight sooner, and will never fall back through it...



Firing straight down (or even upside down) will give similar (but not identical) results (as seen from the pilot's seat).




« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 10:32:51 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

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Offline bustr

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2014, 05:49:49 PM »


A hardstand would be nice (but of extremely limited value to players) and I think the whole cliff thing is a lot more effort than is required to learn what this type of experiment has to teach.


And I don't have such a low opinion of what "players" should be limited to knowing for their own good. They are all paying the same $14.95 I am.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.