Author Topic: Your profession?  (Read 6556 times)

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #180 on: June 02, 2014, 03:09:42 PM »
In education, there are competitive, high-pressure programs that are non technical (think of getting into Juilliard).  There are elite programs in nearly anything, even if it is practically useless for getting a decent job.  Yet there are many nearly 100%-useless programs that are easier to drift through (xyz studies, art history, theater, underwater basket weaving, etc.) than STEM programs.  It amazes me that people major in such things.  It doubly amazes me that there are people who go into debt to do so.  It triply amazes me that they are shocked after graduation to find out what their job prospects are.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #181 on: June 02, 2014, 03:40:12 PM »
A smiley face like this doesn't count?  : )

I actually did 2 of those...one on each of the guys knees.... :rofl

he was a wrestler and wanted his opponent to see them and crack up to break their concentration..... :rofl

Offline Blinder

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 547
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #182 on: June 02, 2014, 06:51:24 PM »
Being serious now. I am a mechanic for BAE Systems. I work on fully tracked armoured fighting vehicles and am currently assigned to the Bradley Family of Infantry Fighting Vehicles. And no, I am not in this pic but it was taken on the production line where I work in York, PA.

Fighter pilots win glory .... Bomber pilots win wars.



17th Guards Air Assault Regiment (VVS) "Badenov's Red Raiders"

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #183 on: June 02, 2014, 08:07:53 PM »
In education, there are competitive, high-pressure programs that are non technical (think of getting into Juilliard).  There are elite programs in nearly anything, even if it is practically useless for getting a decent job.  Yet there are many nearly 100%-useless programs that are easier to drift through (xyz studies, art history, theater, underwater basket weaving, etc.) than STEM programs.  It amazes me that people major in such things.  It doubly amazes me that there are people who go into debt to do so.  It triply amazes me that they are shocked after graduation to find out what their job prospects are.

Right. Low threshold to entry typically means that it's going to be a real dogfight to make it pay.

As for the expectations: I'm not sure many of them have really thought it through or would even know how to do so.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #184 on: June 02, 2014, 08:10:19 PM »
Yes, but, I've coined a term to underscore the fundamental distinction between the two worlds: empiricity. A wing section, just for example, generates lift because of principles that are beyond man's control. Ultimately, the "hard" sciences are disciplined by reality. The airplane flies or does not. The "soft" topiics, and I include part of what I learned in b-school here, but not most of it, since things like econ and finance to mea re really much like engineering, have no such test, ultimately, and, as such, also seem to have diminished utility and difficulty. Understand also, I could've gone either way, having a perfectly balanced SAT before I embarked on the whole Aero Engin thing.

Next time your English major friend talks to an engineer, tell him to reserve judgment and, instead, do his job and ask the engineer, "do you want fries with that?" Empiriicty again: if they're really that stupid, how come they tend employable and valuable, yet the same does not obtain for English majors? I accept that the latter work. The problem for them is, that work does not provide a lot of valued utility to others, at least as measured by the market. That's okay, so long as they understand the tradeoff... but judging by a lot of complaints I hear from people, many do not.

As for you: Chem... hmmm... probably a pretty good way to go these days.
Chemistry probably isn't that great a field anymore, but realistically none of the rest of the sciences are either. Whether you're coming out with a chem, physics, or bio degree a B.S. is practically a high school diploma anymore. And while a high school diploma is better than no high school diploma, if I'm going to have to get a master's anyway...
(granted I'm getting the minor and jumping ship anyway, and geology is already looking up in terms of fulfillment and job prospects- I already get to be a "real scientist" come July or September)

I also will not tell him to reserve his judgment, I like hopping on. I had enough of the engineering student attitude in my first few semesters to not feel bad for them anyway. And that friend puts way more work into his studies than just about any engineering student I've ever met, and certainly genuine passion.

From my perspective it's practically as easy to skate on through a chemistry or biology degree as it is any other one, the difference being if you skate on through a STEM field you'll get a mediocre job and if you skate through anything else you'll get no job. Either way if you excel, likely are doing it for genuine passion instead of security or whatever you'll be better off. I really have respect for people who don't do STEM because they don't have that mediocre-job-safety-net. Ever since starting school I've looked at my getting into science as taking the easy way out.
Or at least that's what it seems to be to me. 5-10 years from now I might have a different perspective.
Granted 5-10 years from now you'll probably need a PhD to manage a McDonalds

In education, there are competitive, high-pressure programs that are non technical (think of getting into Juilliard).  There are elite programs in nearly anything, even if it is practically useless for getting a decent job.  Yet there are many nearly 100%-useless programs that are easier to drift through (xyz studies, art history, theater, underwater basket weaving, etc.) than STEM programs.  It amazes me that people major in such things.  It doubly amazes me that there are people who go into debt to do so.  It triply amazes me that they are shocked after graduation to find out what their job prospects are.
I don't know if I'd knock art history so much, afaik there are a couple reasonable career paths with that depending on what else you major in.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 08:13:53 PM by Motherland »

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #185 on: June 02, 2014, 09:12:05 PM »
I don't know if I'd knock art history so much, afaik there are a couple reasonable career paths with that depending on what else you major in.

Sure, you can study art history along with something useful.  Of course, someone who didn't spend a portion of their college time studying a hobby will have an advantage in knowledge.  But on it's own, what's the job market for an art-history major?

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #186 on: June 02, 2014, 09:19:10 PM »
Chemistry probably isn't that great a field anymore, but realistically none of the rest of the sciences are either. Whether you're coming out with a chem, physics, or bio degree a B.S. is practically a high school diploma anymore. And while a high school diploma is better than no high school diploma, if I'm going to have to get a master's anyway...
(granted I'm getting the minor and jumping ship anyway, and geology is already looking up in terms of fulfillment and job prospects- I already get to be a "real scientist" come July or September)

I also will not tell him to reserve his judgment, I like hopping on. I had enough of the engineering student attitude in my first few semesters to not feel bad for them anyway. And that friend puts way more work into his studies than just about any engineering student I've ever met, and certainly genuine passion.

From my perspective it's practically as easy to skate on through a chemistry or biology degree as it is any other one, the difference being if you skate on through a STEM field you'll get a mediocre job and if you skate through anything else you'll get no job. Either way if you excel, likely are doing it for genuine passion instead of security or whatever you'll be better off. I really have respect for people who don't do STEM because they don't have that mediocre-job-safety-net. Ever since starting school I've looked at my getting into science as taking the easy way out.
Or at least that's what it seems to be to me. 5-10 years from now I might have a different perspective.
Granted 5-10 years from now you'll probably need a PhD to manage a McDonalds
I don't know if I'd knock art history so much, afaik there are a couple reasonable career paths with that depending on what else you major in.

Well, I'll agree on one thing, you'll need postgrad work. That's always been true.

Yes, engineers can be a tough crowd. I try to manage 'em now and see how hard it must've been back when it was the other way around. I had an ago as a consultant and vehicle dynamicist and most of the engineers I teach these days do too. But they're useful, once you get their attention.

As for the question, yes, I was an engineer, aero, then auto, for about thirteen years util ford and I transitioned to the dark side via an MBA.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #187 on: June 02, 2014, 09:24:27 PM »
Sure, you can study art history along with something useful.  Of course, someone who didn't spend a portion of their college time studying a hobby will have an advantage in knowledge.  But on it's own, what's the job market for an art-history major?
The obvious career path is museum work, paired with chemistry and other studies this can lead to restoration and such or whatever--- I'm not exactly an expert, but the starting salary difference between art history and say biology is $4,000 ($36k vs $40k)

Practically all bachelors degrees are equally worthless outside of engineering.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #188 on: June 02, 2014, 09:26:40 PM »
Well, I'll agree on one thing, you'll need postgrad work. That's always been true.

Yes, engineers can be a tough crowd. I try to manage 'em now and see how hard it must've been back when it was the other way around. I had an ago as a consultant and vehicle dynamicist and most of the engineers I teach these days do too. But they're useful, once you get their attention.

As for the question, yes, I was an engineer, aero, then auto, for about thirteen years util ford and I transitioned to the dark side via an MBA.
I wouldn't call them tough. Just pretentious and with an unearned air of superiority. I can deal with premed people because they deserve the elitism, I don't appreciate someone who gets a 50% in a class curved up to a C, graduating with a 2.7 and acting like their ---- doesn't stink.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #189 on: June 02, 2014, 09:43:55 PM »
I wouldn't call them tough. Just pretentious and with an unearned air of superiority. I can deal with premed people because they deserve the elitism, I don't appreciate someone who gets a 50% in a class curved up to a C, graduating with a 2.7 and acting like their ---- doesn't stink.

I can see how it would grate. However, it's not that much better when the guy's genuinely gifted, either. I well remember a guy, who I won't name, in the Stanford aero grad program, who was a self-proclaimed savant. He was, admittedly, incredibly bright.

Last I saw, he was a director at a company and had responsibility for a very specific project; a lightweight battery that got some, uh, high-profile negative attention. It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy... A little humility is, and I've got plenty of other stories, a wise thing to possess. Remember that yourself, young stuff, as you advance in the world. It's a gift; one that is harder to keep as success accrues.

I should add, I use the term "tough" as in "tough crowd" the way a comic uses it. It can be difficult to win a crowd of self-styled skeptics, especially when you consider that a fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer. I say that, yet it's worst in North America. I go to Germany and find the crowds far more daunting -and far more receptive to process work.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 09:58:56 PM by PJ_Godzilla »
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Hoarach

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2406
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #190 on: June 02, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »
Currently a med student.

The only way the science degree is of use anymore is with a master's in a specialty.  Degree in micro or pharm is where its at right now.  Those fields wont die especially a concentration with bio terrorism in micro.
Fringe
Nose Art
80th FS "Headhunters"

Secret Association of P38 Pilots

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #191 on: June 02, 2014, 11:22:46 PM »
The obvious career path is museum work, paired with chemistry and other studies this can lead to restoration and such or whatever--- I'm not exactly an expert, but the starting salary difference between art history and say biology is $4,000 ($36k vs $40k)

Practically all bachelors degrees are equally worthless outside of engineering.

True, but for any field there is always the "I'll get such and such degree and be an [insert rare job here]" angle.  Starting-salary stats usually don't count as zero salary the people who don't get jobs.  If they did, it would give a much more-complete picture of the job prospects.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #192 on: June 03, 2014, 12:08:24 AM »
True, but for any field there is always the "I'll get such and such degree and be an [insert rare job here]" angle.  Starting-salary stats usually don't count as zero salary the people who don't get jobs.  If they did, it would give a much more-complete picture of the job prospects.
http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=
which actually puts art history and biology closer together (only 2k salary difference) and has unemployment at a 1.3% difference (5.6% vs 6.3%) which isn't a huge swing compared with say computer engineering at 7%

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #193 on: June 03, 2014, 01:03:29 AM »
http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=
which actually puts art history and biology closer together (only 2k salary difference) and has unemployment at a 1.3% difference (5.6% vs 6.3%) which isn't a huge swing compared with say computer engineering at 7%

Wow -- that is a great reference, and thank you for posting it.  I see that I shouldn't have maligned art history as much as I did.  You are right, and I stand corrected.  :aok

For all majors in that list, 25th percentile unemployment is 6.7% vs. 75th percentile unemployment of 4.3%.  There isn't much range, which really surprises me.  But then, there are studies like the one from the NY Fed ( http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ci20-1.pdf ) that states underemployment of college grads in 2012 was 44% (underemployment being when the grad takes a job that doesn't require a college degree).  I suspect a lot more art-history majors fit that category than STEM graduates, sort of like the differences shown in Chart 7, where unemployment isn't that radically different among the fields, but underemployment is very different.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 01:15:04 AM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15545
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Your profession?
« Reply #194 on: June 03, 2014, 01:06:53 AM »
http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=

I just have to say again:  this is a fabulous reference, and thank you for posting it.  I had looked for such a reference on the net before, but didn't find anything even remotely as complete.  :aok