Author Topic: Scoring  (Read 5302 times)

Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2014, 04:07:29 PM »
Personal attacks, of any kind, are not welcome on our board.

This forum is for players to pose 'wishes' to the developers for things they would like to see.  Discussion of those 'wishes' is fine, but deviations to the point of name calling are not going to be welcome.

See those "Rule" violation edits?  Those are warnings.  We will no longer tolerate people who cannot maintain a civil tongue on our board.  It serves no purpose but to distract from constructive discussion.

ink, Debrody, take note.  You both know better.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:11:42 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Debrody

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2014, 04:37:41 PM »
See rule #2
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:56:48 PM by hitech »
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Offline ink

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2014, 04:53:22 PM »
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:57:13 PM by hitech »

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2014, 07:39:59 PM »
There is no honor on the BBS.  It's just pixels and letters dude.  

The same can be said of in-game.
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nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2014, 08:13:49 PM »
I dont think there's really a point to changing the scoring system.  if you dont care for score then whatever it is wont matter to you.  if you do care about score again whatever it is changed to, you will find a way to score high just like you found how how to score high in the current one.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2014, 08:42:56 PM »
There is no honor on the BBS.  It's just pixels and letters dude.  

Actually lying on a matter would clearly be dishonorable, no matter the medium. Breaking a "rule" of a game that no one has agreed to and which exists only in a complainer's imagination on the other head  does not stain honor in the slightest.  :aok

(Seriously-NO ONE has agreed. I took a poll, asking if we *seriously* wanted certain standards of fair play in the MA. Not a soul voted in the affirmative. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html )
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Tinkles

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2014, 11:21:53 PM »
I dont think there's really a point to changing the scoring system.  if you dont care for score then whatever it is wont matter to you.  if you do care about score again whatever it is changed to, you will find a way to score high just like you found how how to score high in the current one.


semp

That's sort of a benefit of the score system. If you are a score person, there ya go! If you aren't, well there aren't really any perks of the score/rank system anyways, so nothing to worry about.
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Offline Triton28

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2014, 09:44:32 AM »
The same can be said of in-game.
You're so right.  We know this because it would be impossible to brag about picking cons if honor existed in our pixelated world. 


Actually lying on a matter would clearly be dishonorable, no matter the medium. Breaking a "rule" of a game that no one has agreed to and which exists only in a complainer's imagination on the other head  does not stain honor in the slightest.  :aok

(Seriously-NO ONE has agreed. I took a poll, asking if we *seriously* wanted certain standards of fair play in the MA. Not a soul voted in the affirmative. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html )

This board is not real.  A lie told here lives and dies here.  Nobody loses a wife or a job because they lied here.   
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2014, 10:09:48 AM »
This board is not real.  A lie told here lives and dies here.  Nobody loses a wife or a job because they lied here.   

They possibly could. And it matters not, the lie remains a lie. Rather like, if one agrees to a deck merge and guns cold merge and then breaks it, that is dishonorable. The lie is the root of all dishonor.

Or if the arena message HTC has up for us as we log into the main arena said "Remember guys, no picking, HOing, running", and we tacitly agreed to it by playing in the sandbox Hitech has built and then broke the rules, THAT would effectively be another lie.

Now claiming dishonor/honor for breaking/obeying rules that really only amount to someone without authority to set rules in HTC's sandbox, that perhaps borders on the lie, and wanders way into controlling narcissist territory.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Triton28

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2014, 10:54:10 AM »
People who really think this video game relates in any way to honor or heart need to step away and experience their real lives for a bit.

^^
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2014, 11:16:37 AM »
See Rules #2, #4, #7
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 11:59:41 AM by Skuzzy »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2014, 11:41:43 AM »
You're so right.  We know this because it would be impossible to brag about picking cons if honor existed in our pixelated world.

While I agree that there is no honor in-game, your statement is logically flawed. It's akin to saying murder would be impossible if justice and goodwill existed.

The existence of a social construct does not prevent actions that defy it. Rather, the fact that it can be defied proves that the concept of "honor" is nothing more than an attempt by one or more individuals to force others to adhere to their common code.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 11:47:10 AM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline BnZs

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2014, 11:59:33 AM »
Every Special Event or the like I've ever flown in, I have adhered to all ROE specified by the mods and arena message, as have other players as far as I've seen. The problem with would-be definers of MA "honor" is that they don't have the authority to make codes, the people playing have not agreed to whatever these codes, and use of the tactics they would codify against is ubiquitous, usually even by the codifiers themselves. Everyone picks for example, which is not surprising, because that which AHers define as "picking" is the most effective multi-on-multi air combat tactic.

While I agree that there is no honor in-game, your statement is logically flawed. It's akin to saying murder would be impossible if justice and goodwill existed.

The existence of a social construct does not prevent actions that defy it. Rather, the fact that it can be defied proves that the concept of "honor" is nothing more than an attempt by one or more individuals to force others to adhere to their common code.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:01:06 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2014, 12:50:18 PM »
I agree with the Kruel's assessment of scoring.

I also think both sides are saying the same thing, they just don't realize it because of differences in familiarity and approach.

What the current scoring system lacks is context. The current ranks are determined solely by numeric averages and nothing more.

Let's look at an example: Someone can come in from the top of a massive amount of inbound enemies, kill 10 planes in under 10 minutes, and then RTB. Or, even better, let's say 10 bombers. Adding in an additional 10 minutes of travel each way for ingress and egress, that brings the total sortie time to 30 minutes. Now let's look at the stats.

Total flight time: 30 minutes
Total Kills: 10
Total Deaths: 0
Total k/d: 10.0
Total Sorties: 1
Kills Hit Percentage: (let's figure 17.5%, for killing bombers - not unreasonable by any means)
Kills/Time: 20/hour.
Kills/sortie: 10
Kill Points: ?

So using the completely realistic scenario above, we end up with #1-worthy stats in all categories, except kill points. This person would undoubtedly finish top 20, probably top 10, with a very good chance of being top 5.

All from one sortie.

The above stats are impressive, when taken out of context. Within context, they're less than impressive - someone had a really good, single run killing bombers. The problem, then, is that the current system measures statistics, not performance.

I see many people here arguing that statistics in and of themselves do not give an indicator of skill. I completely agree, which is why I think we should change the system - hear me out.

Let's view another pilot with these stats:

Total flight time: 5 hours
Total Kills: 50
Total Deaths: 10
Total k/d: 5.0
Total Sorties: 10
Kills Hit Percentage: 9%
Kills/Time: 10/hour.
Kills/sortie: 5

This guy will probably finish top 50, maybe top 25. However, these stats, individually, are only decent at best, so his overall ranking will depend on the law of averages - nothing more.

But the real question here, is how does this guy, which we will refer to as pilot B, compare against the pilot above, pilot A? The answer: We don't know, and can't tell, from the stats.

The current stats are worthless for anything except numbers right now. True, you can infer a certain amount of skill for those that consistently rank high, but outside of inferring skill based on long-term consistency, they're worthless in and of themselves.

Now, let's go back to pilot A. He had a really good sortie. A really, really good sortie that he intends to repeat. Let's pretend that he rolls again... goes on a 30-minute sortie... and is shot down by an average-skilled player. Let's assume he shot several times at his opponent throughout the fight, lowering his hit percentage to 9%. He now ranks lower than pilot B, as all stats are identical, with the exception of kill points, which pilot B should have a lead in.

However, we're just pretending. Pilot A didn't roll again, didn't get shot down, and now he's parked his name at the top of the leaderboard as it's actually a shade account that he rarely flies. One of the top 25 spots, and most likely top 10 spots, is now taken due to an extremely lucky run. Now, we know that he's only marginally skilled, but the stat system doesn't weight performance, so he will remain ranked over pilot B who clearly has a much more solid gameplay history and skill set.

The problem that I see with the system isn't the rankings or the averages, it's the lack of a weighting system that gives some type of context. Now, we have to be careful here, because we don't want subjective context, we want objective context. We don't want to try to calculate if it was a 5v1 fight vs a 1v5 fight, or if player A got kills from HO's or not - it's ridiculous to try to adjust for those factors.

What there is improvement for is quantity of quality. For example, someone with a 10:1 with 50 kills should be given some sort of weight against someone with a 10:1 with 40 kills. However, due to score adjusting for imbalanced sides, it's realistically possible for the 40-kill player to gain more kill points, especially based on the aircraft that they fly. In fact, for example, someone furballing in early/mid-war Spitfires can use this to game the system.

People claim that the Kill Points stat balances out the above, but that's not the case. Kill points acts independently, as its own stat, so instead of directly affecting the weighting of kills/deaths, it indirectly affects it through overall ranking. It doesn't directly modify the ranking of K/D or Kills per Sortie, so it doesn't really work as a weight of quality.

The same thing could be said of accuracy. There should be some type of weighting for the guy that fires 150,000 rounds at 9.9% accuracy compared to the guy who fired 1000 rounds at 10% accuracy. The current system negates long-term, consistent performance and instead rewards short term luck.

As it stands, the scoring system is all about gaming numbers, not improving performance. By weighting kills, accuracy, etc., it downplays the advantage of being able to run one or two or five sorties and then retiring for the month, as those sorties would have relatively little weight. An adjusted scoring system would reward long-term, consistent, good performance over someone who had one "lucky" great run.

What the changes would not do is change the standing of good or even great pilots. Pilots who are consistently good could fly, no longer fearing a freak-chance death from a .50-cal pilot wound at 1200 yards. Deaths and misses are not primary concerns, because they are weighted out in the long run. It would encourage people to engage and fight more, instead of running the second it looks like the tables might turn and the fight could end up with a single death that would wreck that player's monthly stats.

Poor pilots would remain being ranked where they are currently at. There are no suggested changes that would cause them to rank higher.

Fighter Ace had similar mechanisms, where stats could be pulled based on volume of kills, deaths, sorties, etc. What resulted from this is that no one, literally no one, cared about the players' stats with under X amount of kills. The community that resulted from it was one that was focused on long-term performance statistics. No one cared if you had a great week or even month, they cared how you performed over the long-haul. "Who are the best pilots with more than 10,000 kills?" "Who has the highest kills per hour, with more than 1,000 overall kills?" - those were the types of scoring inquiries that resulted from the changes, and they were all positive.

I believe these changes would bring about positive change, as players would be focused on long-term stats and on finding fights, as volume and consistency matter more than single, lucky, low-volume runs.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:56:22 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline Triton28

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Re: Scoring
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »
While I agree that there is no honor in-game, your statement is logically flawed. It's akin to saying murder would be impossible if justice and goodwill existed.

The existence of a social construct does not prevent actions that defy it. Rather, the fact that it can be defied proves that the concept of "honor" is nothing more than an attempt by one or more individuals to force others to adhere to their common code.

And without any social constructs, chaos (or dweeby cartoon flying) reigns.

Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
      -AoM-