Author Topic: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?  (Read 10227 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2014, 10:03:11 PM »
It requires no skill as a pilot, only skill as a marksman...
Gunnery is a part of being skilled as a pilot, and probably the most important part for being effective, in truth. I don't have it myself. However, unlike many, I don't positively hate those who do. "Good flying never killed anyone"-Who said that again?

Second, a HO can be looked at as a kick in the balls. It's generally considered a really toejamty thing to do, even in a fight. It's cripplingly painful if it connects squarely, pisses you off if it misses, takes no particular skill to do, ab you can do it right back.
I once proposed a set of rules for the MA which could be agreed upon and enforced, similar to the way the rule against kicking men in the balls is enforced in fight sports. I included a rule against HOing. Not a single person thought it was a good idea. So let me get this straight: This community is going to scream a resounding "NO!" to setting up some rules in a manner in which one could reasonably expect them to be followed, with sanctions for disobeying them. Yet they are still going to get their panties in a bunch when someone violates these same "non-rules" that they refuse to make formal. Hmmm...sounds like members of this community don't want to get rid of certain actions in the MA, they just want socially-acceptable options to get their panties in a bunch when they lose fights in certain ways.  :D

Little skill required,
It would be an interesting experiment to deliberately go head-on against a Bruv, a Mex, or a Skyyr in matched planes. I am betting most people talking here, including you and I, would find themselves blowing up without doing severe damage to their planes. Little skill?

And really, it's only a HO from maybe the10:30-1:30 position. And that's being generous. It's not like we're saying a full half of the aircraft is off limits, as you are ham-fistedly attempting to imply.
That's still a massive amount of angles to be off-limits, and many many turn and burn fighters can pretty much get that close to pointing their nose at you every time when one is trying to kill them with a much less maneuverable bird. So I say again, many people's definition of "HO" would effectively rule out most of the shots an E fighters is likely to get against a TnB fighter.

Fact is Skyyrr could have engaged in a maneuvering fight, and wouldn't have been consigning himself to death.
In either case, it is through a fault in himself, not in his opponent.
The principle difference between the DA and the MA is the matter of time. In a duel one can maneuver for the perfect position indefinitely for all practical purposes.  The MA, however, is an extreme multiple bandit situation-infinite airplanes upping all the time. Under those circumstances, taking too long to kill the bandit can often be a fatal mistake, even if one "wins" the fight. This used to happen to me all the time and I would inwardly be very frustrated by those "horrible horrible pickers". But this did not do anything to improve my fun or performance. Much better was accepting that the MA is what it is, and adapting accordingly. Now that bad end does not happen as often, and I generally enjoy the game more.
Conversely, just as taking too long to kill the bandit can be as fatal as bad mistake in ACM, killing the bandit with the first available shot is nearly always the smart thing to do in an arena where additional bandits ARE coming, whether they acre currently in icon range or not.
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Offline TonyJoey

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2014, 10:32:23 PM »
Doing as Fugi suggested and simply swinging around on his six would have been a much preferable option than the one chosen. A head-on is generally not a good investment for someone wanting to survive.

Offline Skyyr

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2014, 11:19:20 PM »
Plain and simple....  no blame was given, no whine was recorded... only perceived.   Was it my fault?  I've said nothing to the contrary.  Rather I admitted to giving him an easy kill.  Fact is, Skyrr shouldve added one more option to this threads title....  nonexistent SA...... because in this particular case, the film bears this fact out.....  straight and level flying.... no one at the stick.... no attempt to evade.... none of my normal MO of H2H avoidance.   I find this whole thing laughable.... that Skyrr felt the need to show off an incredibly easy unchallenged kill.... shows what a Stuart Smalley he is.   He's good enough, he's smart enough.... and darn it Fulcrum and Vraciu like him!

Actually, you complained it was a "h2h" shot. Which is ironic, because...

no one at the stick

...you weren't at the stick, yet you clearly saw enough of the fight to see the setup, the shot, and then the kill. Interesting... :rolleyes:

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Offline LCADolby

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2014, 11:23:19 PM »
h2h is" hot to hot aspect ", you were lucky you got into the flanking aspect or your whole thread would have fallen in on you.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2014, 11:28:21 PM »
h2h is" hot to hot aspect ", you were lucky you got into the flanking aspect or your whole thread would have fallen in on you.

I was aware of that from the moment I posted the thread.
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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2014, 11:36:26 PM »
Gunnery is a part of being skilled as a pilot, and probably the most important part for being effective, in truth. I don't have it myself. However, unlike many, I don't positively hate those who do. "Good flying never killed anyone"-Who said that again?

Not so. Take away Latrobe's ability to BnZ/HO-pick/slash-shoot/whatever-you-wish-to-call-it, he'll still own 8 skyyrrs simultaneously all day. Take away skyyrr's ability to do the same to Latrobe.... you know what, screw it. Let him do what he wants. I bet he still loses to 1 Latrobe.


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I once proposed a set of rules for the MA which could be agreed upon and enforced, similar to the way the rule against kicking men in the balls is enforced in fight sports. I included a rule against HOing. Not a single person thought it was a good idea. So let me get this straight: This community is going to scream a resounding "NO!" to setting up some rules in a manner in which one could reasonably expect them to be followed, with sanctions for disobeying them. Yet they are still going to get their panties in a bunch when someone violates these same "non-rules" that they refuse to make formal. Hmmm...sounds like members of this community don't want to get rid of certain actions in the MA, they just want socially-acceptable options to get their panties in a bunch when they lose fights in certain ways.  :D

I've made no requests for enforced guidelines. I've always been a big proponent of mob-justice; Skyyrr behaves like a sweetheart, we treat him like a sweetheart and ostracize him. He shapes up, or just doesn't care and continues to act like a sweetheart. In either case, we either bring to heel a recalcitrant brat, or show his persona truly does reflect his person, in which case we should ostracize him for actually being a sweetheart instead of just behaving like one.

I've always enjoyed the game for two reasons; the historical immersion in special events, and the fights. Many greatly enjoy the fights as well. If we accept that the MA is always going to be the "win at any cost, ho-horde, vulch land", we give up on a big part of what we enjoy in the game. Structured duels are nice, but nothing matches the spontaneity and excitement of a random encounter. You're thinking "who is he, hows he going to fly? Am I better? Are we evenly matched? Is he better?" Unknowingly going up against Latrobe is better than knowingly going up against him; knowing its him, I also know his skill level far exceeds my own, that nothing I can do will beat him, and that I'd have more fun fighting someone else, with whom the match would be extremely close.


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It would be an interesting experiment to deliberately go head-on against a Bruv, a Mex, or a Skyyrr in matched planes. I am betting most people talking here, including you and I, would find themselves blowing up without doing severe damage to their planes. Little skill?
I can hit a non maneuvering target at D800. Hell, I can hit the offline drones lazily drifting to the left at D800. What I suck at is judging the continuously changing lead caused by maneuvering; this is also what most people suck at. But a HO creates a target that is for all practical purposes non maneuvering. Hell, you even need to adjust less for the vertical drop, since he's flying at your rounds. Unless they're able to aim and fire accurately beyond D800 consistently, a dead-on HO is the best way to get both guys in the tower as quick as possible.


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That's still a massive amount of angles to be off-limits, and many many turn and burn fighters can pretty much get that close to pointing their nose at you every time when one is trying to kill them with a much less maneuverable bird. So I say again, many people's definition of "HO" would effectively rule out most of the shots an E fighters is likely to get against a TnB fighter.
It amounts to 1/6th of their target profile. Hardly "massive"


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The principle difference between the DA and the MA is the matter of time. In a duel one can maneuver for the perfect position indefinitely for all practical purposes.  The MA, however, is an extreme multiple bandit situation-infinite airplanes upping all the time. Under those circumstances, taking too long to kill the bandit can often be a fatal mistake, even if one "wins" the fight. This used to happen to me all the time and I would inwardly be very frustrated by those "horrible horrible pickers". But this did not do anything to improve my fun or performance. Much better was accepting that the MA is what it is, and adapting accordingly. Now that bad end does not happen as often, and I generally enjoy the game more.
Conversely, just as taking too long to kill the bandit can be as fatal as bad mistake in ACM, killing the bandit with the first available shot is nearly always the smart thing to do in an arena where additional bandits ARE coming, whether they acre currently in icon range or not.

So you've given up on what you once loved, dog-fighting, and now participate in what killed what you love in an effort to be "effective". Lol, all sorts of quotes are applicable to you and Skyyrr today. First the "Kanye's a ******" quote, now the Batman "you either die a hero" quote.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 11:38:00 PM by TheCrazyOrange »

Offline JunkyII

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2014, 12:32:19 AM »
How can some of you say this shot is ok and part of the game........then the next thread over your talking about hordes on undefended bases and toolshedders......

They are on a different scale but the end result is the same....loss of combat simulation.
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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2014, 12:40:14 AM »
How can some of you say this shot is ok and part of the game........then the next thread over your talking about hordes on undefended bases and toolshedders......

They are on a different scale but the end result is the same....loss of combat simulation.

Because they don't care about whats good for the game, or numbers, or noob retention. They only care about whatever part of the game they enjoy doing, regardless of its effects on the other parts of the game. Ideally for them, every time they approach a field, there would be no cons, ack down, and everyone dumb enough to spawn up on one runway.

Offline Copprhed

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2014, 01:39:15 AM »
The whole point of the thread was for the OP to justify the shot he took.

Watch the film, it starts with the enemy in the up.forward view for a few seconds, then it is in the front view all the way up until the shot. This means the OP is diving. Check his indicator and you can see he is diving the whole time. He went for the HO, he never had any other intention to do anything else. In the 10+ second he has diving on the enemy and going for his HO he could have easily passed down the side passing parallel to the enemies flight path stay a few hundred feet wide and using a high-yo with a roll to come up over the top and drop on the enemy's 6.

He didn't, and this is the reputation he is building for himself. As he is called out more and more on his "favorite" move he tries to justify himself to the community with posts like this one.
What ever dude. Those of us who know better, know better.  ;)
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Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2014, 05:27:37 AM »
How can some of you say this shot is ok and part of the game........then the next thread over your talking about hordes on undefended bases and toolshedders......

They are on a different scale but the end result is the same....loss of combat simulation.
Two player-driven machines met, one shot the other. This is what is supposed to happen in a combat game.

Dropping hangars all the time inherently prevents this from happening, which is why I am against it.

I said nothing about hordes. A horde represents more targets after all. Of course, if one is fighting a horde, one is well advised to take every single shot that may put down a bandit.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2014, 05:59:07 AM »
Not so. Take away Latrobe's ability to BnZ/HO-pick/slash-shoot/whatever-you-wish-to-call-it,
A critical reason that Latrobe can win at fighting crowds is that his gunnery is spot on. I can maneuver in a similar manner to Latrobe does in some of his videos and still find nothing but frustration because I cannot kill as quickly. As always in multi-bandit situations, it is a matter of time.

I've made no requests for enforced guidelines.
And that is what makes the whole thing silly. People vote overwhelmingly to keep the MA a big free-for-all that is inherently random and unfair, and then object when people don't fight according to whatever guidelines they are embracing at this moment in order to have a pretext for complaint.

I've always been a big proponent of mob-justice;
Mob justice, oh THAT is known for being fair and objective. Actually, the "justice" is oftentimes dispensed very unevenly. Take Bozon for instance. If you fly more or less directly towards him, he will more or less brutally shred you in his Mossie. I've seen him do it. Not a hated man here on the BBS.


I can hit a non maneuvering target at D800. Hell, I can hit the offline drones lazily drifting to the left at D800. What I suck at is judging the continuously changing lead caused by maneuvering; this is also what most people suck at. But a HO creates a target that is for all practical purposes non maneuvering. Hell, you even need to adjust less for the vertical drop, since he's flying at your rounds. Unless they're able to aim and fire accurately beyond D800 consistently, a dead-on HO is the best way to get both guys in the tower as quick as possible.
So dogma holds that it is both easy to avoid the HO and easy to inflict MAD upon the HOer. Why complain about HOs instead of selecting either of the above options?



It amounts to 1/6th of their target profile. Hardly "massive"
The BEST timing on a rope actually consists of falling on them when they've run out of maneuvering speed, but BEFORE they've actually gone nose down. Then they have no chance to avoid. Your angulation guidelines would preclude many such shots. Also it would preclude certain shot opportunities on the scissors. I once had someone criticize me for a shot I took in a flat scissors, on the basis that he woulda/coulda/shoulda have pulled nose-on and shot as well. ??? How am I supposed to know the difference between a situation where the opponent doesn't have the turn rate available to point his nose at me, and a situation where he does but chooses to not do so? They look the same on the screen. If I see that someones nose is going to come around on me, I profile and jink. At best, not taking every shot you can get costs time, which as I've already pointed out, is often a fatal mistake in the MA.


So you've given up on what you once loved, dog-fighting, and now participate in what killed what you love in an effort to be "effective".
No, I still participate in ACM in the MA. Knowing it is a part of being effective, after all, and effectiveness (killing more than you die. Or at least as often) is more fun than the opposite, I find. It is just that I'm realistic about expectations. I'm don't expect to be able to fight it as a series of formal duels without interference, so I adjust accordingly. I acknowledge that if I allow myself to be anywhere in front of the nose of any plane, especially gajillion cannon birds, it is my fault if I get shot down, ESPECIALLY if I'm in something uber-maneuverable that can easily avoid. As a corollary, I don't rule out using any technique that may be effective or simply fun. Like the example I used earlier, if that spitfire wants to whip around and point his nose at me instead of evading, I will fire and laugh maniacally all the way back to the tower.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 06:03:34 AM by BnZs »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2014, 08:16:39 AM »

  Not sure I could make that shot but I'm not a very good shot to begin with!

   I wouldnt call it a HO,infact I wish players would refrain from using that term and call it a John Wayne merge,you know where you come in guns a blazing!

     I use the term acute frontal attack since it's an attack from the front at less than 90 degrees. Of an AFA if you need an acronym......


  YMMV!





    :salute


You are right mate, no one was calling it a HO, not even Nishi who was the guy who got shot.

This whole thread seems to be an attempt to drag Nishi into seeming to be whining about a HO, which, in fact, he was not.


Fulcrum foolishly brought up 'history between Nishi and Skyr in FA' which makes it obvious that somewhere private this situation is being discussed without Nishi's knowledge. As Shida said, this is all just a transparent Rule 4 work around.
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Offline Zerstorer

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2014, 10:46:56 AM »
Fulcrum foolishly brought up 'history between Nishi and Skyr in FA' which makes it obvious that somewhere private this situation is being discussed without Nishi's knowledge. As Shida said, this is all just a transparent Rule 4 work around.

I'm aware that Skyyr has history with Nishi, as well as several other ex-FA pilots (e.g. Bruv), simply from information obtained from conversations I've had with him and Kruel over the past few months. Further, I'm not aware of any plot or conspiracy to call out Nishi...nor would I knowingly participate in one.  Not only is it something that is not in my nature, but I also happen to like and respect Nishi.

I wonder why you would draw a conclusion like this given the limited amount of data available. Personal experience, or from drawing parallels with how your own squad operates?

Things that name you go "Hmmmmmm..."  :headscratch:
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Offline TheCrazyOrange

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2014, 10:55:41 AM »
A critical reason that Latrobe can win at fighting crowds is that his gunnery is spot on. I can maneuver in a similar manner to Latrobe does in some of his videos and still find nothing but frustration because I cannot kill as quickly. As always in multi-bandit situations, it is a matter of time.
And that is what makes the whole thing silly. People vote overwhelmingly to keep the MA a big free-for-all that is inherently random and unfair, and then object when people don't fight according to whatever guidelines they are embracing at this moment in order to have a pretext for complaint.
Not to be rude, but Latrobe is virtually famous for his skill, especially in 109's. He's easily top 10 AH pilots overall. Again, not to be rude, but who the hell are you?

I'm sure you've had those moments where everything you do is golden. I've had them before; everyone who's been around a little bit probably has. My occasional bouts of savant-like skill doesn't make me anything more than average.

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Mob justice, oh THAT is known for being fair and objective. Actually, the "justice" is oftentimes dispensed very unevenly. Take Bozon for instance. If you fly more or less directly towards him, he will more or less brutally shred you in his Mossie. I've seen him do it. Not a hated man here on the BBS.
He's also not posting these "neener neener, look at me, I'm not "quite" HO'ing, I'm beyond your criticism despite asking for your opinion!" threads. So 1) he's not being antagonistic. 2) he doesn't seem to have an inflated self-image. 3) he's also a damn fine stick in a difficult aircraft to be good in.

Were he to go around acting like Skyyrr in an La-7, I'm sure he'd be pretty widely disliked.

And besides, unequal justice is better than an utter lack of justice. May not be perfect, but it's also a lot more practical than punishable rules, and the best part, there's actually a chance of it happening.

If Skyyrr gets "unfairly" targeted... I'm kind of okay with it.

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So dogma holds that it is both easy to avoid the HO and easy to inflict MAD upon the HOer. Why complain about HOs instead of selecting either of the above options?

#1 is a rather simplistic and narrow view, and ignores circumstance, which is not negligible.

#2 is not a good option because it almost always results in death and a wasted sortie (and even worse, my limited, irretrievable time).

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The BEST timing on a rope actually consists of falling on them when they've run out of maneuvering speed, but BEFORE they've actually gone nose down. Then they have no chance to avoid. Your angulation guidelines would preclude many such shots.
I would disagree. Ideally you come down such that they are showing you their top/bottom at around D-600. This prevents people like you and Skyyrr and Bozon from wildly spraying fire as I pump lead into your hopefully out-fought carcass.

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Also it would preclude certain shot opportunities on the scissors. I once had someone criticize me for a shot I took in a flat scissors, on the basis that he woulda/coulda/shoulda have pulled nose-on and shot as well. ??? How am I supposed to know the difference between a situation where the opponent doesn't have the turn rate available to point his nose at me, and a situation where he does but chooses to not do so? They look the same on the screen. If I see that someones nose is going to come around on me, I profile and jink. At best, not taking every shot you can get costs time, which as I've already pointed out, is often a fatal mistake in the MA.

I'd say you're scissors aren't working real great if they only got you a head-on.

Speaking of which, how is he reasonably supposed to avoid you? If it's like I'm picturing your two flight paths, it would come up rather abruptly, where there's not much room to maneuver.

Also your dilemma is why I try not to ho. Rather than assume everyone is going to Ho, I've decided it's irrelevant; I'm good enough I don't have to.

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No, I still participate in ACM in the MA. Knowing it is a part of being effective, after all, and effectiveness (killing more than you die. Or at least as often) is more fun than the opposite, I find. It is just that I'm realistic about expectations. I'm don't expect to be able to fight it as a series of formal duels without interference, so I adjust accordingly. I acknowledge that if I allow myself to be anywhere in front of the nose of any plane, especially gajillion cannon birds, it is my fault if I get shot down, ESPECIALLY if I'm in something uber-maneuverable that can easily avoid. As a corollary, I don't rule out using any technique that may be effective or simply fun. Like the example I used earlier, if that spitfire wants to whip around and point his nose at me instead of evading, I will fire and laugh maniacally all the way back to the tower.

So you've moved from flying for fights to flying to have a good K/D  :headscratch:? Sorry, I just can't get behind that. Anyone can have a good K/D if they always have multiple squadies with them, or fly with the horde, or just always run when they don't have a clear advantage. They don't necessarily have to kill a lot, or even be a particularly good pilot; they're simply relying on crutches to make up for a deficit in their own skill, rather than getting better.

There's a reason they don't use batting tees in MLB.


Besides that, my time is at a premium. Flying around not taking fights for fear of not having a good K/D is just illogical for me, too say nothing of suicide-inducingly boring.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 10:58:31 AM by TheCrazyOrange »

Offline mechanic

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Re: HO, front-quarter, or simply poor SA?
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2014, 12:31:07 PM »
...nor would I knowingly participate in one.

but you are participating in this one, are you not?

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I wonder why you would draw a conclusion like this given the limited amount of data available. Personal experience, or from drawing parallels with how your own squad operates?


We are far too disorganised to 'operate' in any shape or form. I thought that was why you quit.
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