Author Topic: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 10751 times)

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #135 on: July 09, 2014, 02:37:29 PM »
Let me first say that anyone who thinks that the problems in Aces High can be anywhere near addressed by updating the plane set is insane.

Part of the problem with this game is not only the shrinking player base, but the player base that the game is shrinking to. Namely a bunch of crochety old men who still complain about Call of Duty Xbox playing teenagers, despite that these are things that are nearly 15 years old now and the people who grew up on them are in their twenties and thirties. (note everything that I'm going to say is grasping at straws, conjecture, non-researched [I haven't even played this game seriously in years but still can somehow not keep myself from the boards] and not sugar-coated/somewhat tongue-in-cheek, so if you've got one foot in the grave and a thin skin I suggest you change your colostomy bag in lieu of finishing reading this post)

As far as I remember in 2007 this 'old guard' still had itself together, but it's pretty clear that at this point a lot of these people are just fed up with video games and moving on to knitting or something or are dying (the current 'old guard' will from here be referred to as the 'near-dead guard'). The ones that are still left seem to be so bitter about not having anything better to do at 85 that they do nothing but complain on 200 about how much better things were in the fifties because race mixing was still illegal in their state. This provides an extremely hostile environment for people who still have hope left in their life upon entering the game. This is a problem, because these are the people, in their teens, twenties, and thirties, who should a) be filtering through the game and b) be forming a new 'old guard'.
Part of the issue is that this game is catered toward the near-dead guard.
"Graphics don't matter!"
"that's dumb, all I care about is combat!"
"anyone unwilling to put in three months of floundering and being made fun of is unfit to play this game!"
"shirts with flames on them are cool!"
The game play issues of Aces High are difficult to address and I suspect a lot of the stagnation comes from the shrinking player base as opposed to actual problems with the game mechanism anyway. The and while the shrinking player base of course probably has a lot to do with the gameplay mechanics, there are other things which make this game less conducive to a new generation of players that can also be looked at. But never are. Because most everyone here is almost dead. You'll refuse to believe these are issues, but, rest assured, they are.

And, let me first say, that I think that the terrain update is a fantastic step in a great direction, not only because of an increase in tangible graphic capabilities with stuff like ambient occlusion and more terrain vertices or whatever, but aesthetic. Aesthetic is something this game has a huge problem with.
Removing the graphic capabilities, it just looks like a game from like 2003 (liberally). The menus and utilitarian controls (like the auto takeoff sign or whatever) just all look awful, half baked, and one-to-one-and-a-half decades dated (which makes since since a lot of them largely are). This is not going to be fixed with higher resolution textures or bump mapping. It just all needs redone in a way that is more in line with what you would expect from a professionally done video game in 2014, not an indie game from 1999. While obviously icons are here to stay, they can probably be looked at in a way that will make them look a lot less '1999'- maybe change the font, just make them a little smoother. Perhaps things that are usually in the middle screen (like 'auto takeoff enabled') into a special 'game/status message' box on the screen. Make the radio look a little bit cleaner and more modern. The website is similar. Further, the screenshots section of the website shows screenshots from a long long time ago, with old terrain engines, very old plane models, etc. and generally makes the game look outdated and pretty crappy.

As noted the terrain update I think is a huge improvement, and this goes along with aesthetic. Previous game elements, as well as most custom design elements, feature weirdly high contrast color schemes which old people seem to interpret as "HD". This may be a biological issue (perhaps their eyes just can't perceive subtleties in color?), but it's likely simply an issue of aesthetic that has never been allowed to adapt with the times. The new terrain is great because the colors are so much more subdued, there's so much more subtlety, and everything seems so much more organic and soft. Some of the buildings, I think at least, are still a little bit 'photographs with the contrast cranked' looking, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. But the bright colors I suspect much of the aging population of this game equates with 'vividness' or something has to go, quickly, in a big way. It's just something that goes into giving the game an amateurish and very outdated appearance, even as the graphical capabilities get much better.

You may think that this is stupid, a lot of work for nothing material, but that's why this game fails to grab new players. That attitude is out of touch with what makes a twenty-something feel like they're playing something immersive and professional. It's why Aces High will never pick back up until it ditches its fifteen-year-old aesthetics.

Go to WoT and you find another game that, despite also coming from a relatively small developer, feels professional, immersive, and somewhat 'serious'. Guess which game is going to seem immediately more appealing to someone who's in for a realistic WWII experience.

Also all of the old AH I models should be updated by now because seriously
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 03:02:20 PM by Motherland »

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #136 on: July 09, 2014, 02:39:30 PM »
. Namely a bunch of crochety old men who still complain about Call of Duty Xbox playing teenagers, despite that these are things that are nearly 15 years old now

 :lol :aok
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #137 on: July 09, 2014, 02:44:13 PM »
This game is a niche within a niche within a niche.  I think a lot of you guys are grossly overestimating the endless streams of people who would put forth the equipment and time investment to play here if only they knew about it.  The people who are casually interested in it get their itch scratched by the F2P stuff.

Wiley.

QFT.  

In all honesty, AH is somewhere above the "super realism" niche, but well below the War Thunder niche when measuring the number of people who would potentially be interested in playing.  War Thunder in its simplest form (Arcade) is nothing more than a 1st / 3rd person shooter with wings...no more realistic than playing the latest Call of Duty.....but that is attractive to those who just want action without investing a ton of time in learning ACM, reading, dying a ton, etc.  

Welcome to the instant gratification generation.  :frown:
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #138 on: July 09, 2014, 02:45:41 PM »
Part of the problem with this game is not only the shrinking player base, but the player base that the game is shrinking to. Namely a bunch of crochety old men who still complain about Call of Duty Xbox playing teenagers, despite that these are things that are nearly 15 years old now and the people who grew up on them are in their twenties and thirties. (note everything that I'm going to say is grasping at straws, conjecture, non-researched [I haven't even played this game seriously in years but still can somehow not keep myself from the boards] and not sugar-coated/somewhat tongue-in-cheek, so if you've got one foot in the grave and a thin skin I suggest you change your colostomy bag in lieu of finishing reading this post)

GET OFF MY LAWN, KID!!!!   :old:

QFT.  

In all honesty, AH is somewhere above the "super realism" niche, but well below the War Thunder niche when measuring the number of people who would potentially be interested in playing.  War Thunder in its simplest form (Arcade) is nothing more than a 1st / 3rd person shooter with wings...no more realistic than playing the latest Call of Duty.....but that is attractive to those who just want action without investing a ton of time in learning ACM, reading, dying a ton, etc.  

Welcome to the instant gratification generation.  :frown:

I guess he's right!   :rofl :D
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #139 on: July 09, 2014, 02:49:25 PM »
Aces High might serve a pretty small niche but the idea that the game is inaccessible because it takes too much effort or isn't instant gratification enough is silly. There are games that are mind-numbingly boring compared to Aces High (see any of Paradox Interactive's sandbox grand strategy titles) (which also serve a pretty small niche by the way) but present an immersive user experience and are professional looking and 'with the times' aesthetically and do very well (see the flourishing success of Paradox Interactive) with a good market (20-30 year olds).

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #140 on: July 09, 2014, 02:53:01 PM »
Welcome to the instant gratification generation.  :frown:


I heard that stuff 30 years ago. My parents probably heard the same 60 years ago...
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #141 on: July 09, 2014, 03:03:09 PM »

I heard that stuff 30 years ago. My parents probably heard the same 60 years ago...

Meh...kids these days!  :old:

 :)

In all seriousness, I have to disagree somewhat with the idea the learning curve has nothing to do with the number of players interested.  Sorry guys, but many people have less and less free time these days just trying to make ends meet....unless they are unemployed, of course.  Regardless, both are significant factors lowering the number of potential users.  Many who find themselves overworked would likely use what little free time they have on something that they can pickup and learn quickly, rather than something it will take years to master.  Just IMHO, of course....honestly I hope I'm wrong!
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #142 on: July 09, 2014, 03:08:36 PM »
Meh...kids these days!  :old:

 :)

In all seriousness, I have to disagree somewhat with the idea the learning curve has nothing to do with the number of players interested.  Sorry guys, but many people have less and less free time these days just trying to make ends meet....unless they are unemployed, of course.  Regardless, both are significant factors lowering the number of potential users.  Many who find themselves overworked would likely use what little free time they have on something that they can pickup and learn quickly, rather than something it will take years to master.  Just IMHO, of course....honestly I hope I'm wrong!

I don't think it has *nothing* to do with learning curve. I don't think people have no interest in playing hard games any more, though, because that's ridiculous. Once failing that Aces High does have is that there's no tutorial system or anything to get you into it. You can go into the deserted training arena or you can get eaten alive in the MA, which from what I understand no longer has anyone in it who hasn't been playing for two years. I'm sure that turns a lot of people off, I don't know why it wouldn't. In fact, I don't know why anyone without significant flight sim experience would get into this game at this point.

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8081
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #143 on: July 09, 2014, 03:09:18 PM »
Again I find myself in limited agreement with you, Wiley. It is highly specialized and, as it sits currently, is overspecialized because of the limited numbers. What i'm saying: it'll likely always be niche-y, but need not be nested nichey. In part, it's how we've made the world, in part how the world was to begin.

Here's how I see the rock and hard place they're up against.  Choosing any of the games in this genre requires some kind of compromise.  Some things people won't compromise on, others they will.  For example, some people love them some engine management and feel it's a critical part of the experience.  They wind up in IL2 or DCS.  Some people want constant action.  They're in WT and WoT.  Some people don't want to have to learn much.  They are also in WT and WoT.

AH is built around open world large map (even our "small" maps) unstructured combat.  A good number of people tolerated that to get their WWII combat fix, but they prefer round based, goal based gameplay.  When they got options that were more inline with their gameplay preferences, they jumped ship.

The people who prefer the open world style gameplay this has to offer are now a larger proportion of the player base and it's probably the 'no compromise' part of gameplay for them because it's pretty much the only viable game with that gameplay left.

Quote
That said, if you are telling me that AH would not benefit from broader awareness, I'd tell you that there are more than 200-300 (or even 2000-3000) WWII air combat enthusiasts who would probably pay money for the experience. What were the WT numbers, again? What about WoT, to whom we lost so many players?

Completely different game styles though.  Open world vs instant action round based, both of them.  A night of AH, even when numbers are awesome, still is a completely different gameplay experience from a night of WT.

The gameplay of those other two games is more in line with what the vast majority of gamers are looking for when they look for a game.  Bite sized objectives, constant fair fights.

Aces High might serve a pretty small niche but the idea that the game is inaccessible because it takes too much effort or isn't instant gratification enough is silly. There are games that are mind-numbingly boring compared to Aces High (see any of Paradox Interactive's sandbox grand strategy titles) (which also serve a pretty small niche by the way) but present an immersive user experience and are professional looking and 'with the times' aesthetically and do very well (see the flourishing success of Paradox Interactive) with a good market (20-30 year olds).

Huge agreement about the UI and aethetics.  It is stuck in the 90s, which doesn't bother me but I understand why it's unattractive to people who are used to current design.

The thing with the mind-numbingly boring games, don't know a thing about Paradox's stuff, but I'm thinking in terms of WoW and soforth.  They're mind numbingly boring, and they take up an immense amount of time, but there's very little that a person cannot do in most modern games if their time investment is high enough.  Eventually they will get to see all of the game.  There is only so good a person can get at a game like AH.  Everybody has a cap on their capability, and a large number of gamers don't like to be shown where that cap is, unless it is near the top of the game. ;)

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #144 on: July 09, 2014, 03:27:06 PM »
Huge agreement about the UI and aethetics.  It is stuck in the 90s, which doesn't bother me but I understand why it's unattractive to people who are used to current design.

The thing with the mind-numbingly boring games, don't know a thing about Paradox's stuff, but I'm thinking in terms of WoW and soforth.  They're mind numbingly boring, and they take up an immense amount of time, but there's very little that a person cannot do in most modern games if their time investment is high enough.  Eventually they will get to see all of the game.  There is only so good a person can get at a game like AH.  Everybody has a cap on their capability, and a large number of gamers don't like to be shown where that cap is, unless it is near the top of the game. ;)

Wiley.

I think there are probably reasonably sized sections of the player base from WT and WoT who want a sand box WWII experience but are put off by a lot of the baggage that comes with Aces High. It's just a hard game to get into for a lot of reasons. Sand box or close-to-sandbox is still pretty big in gaming, is still what a lot of titles are moving to. Even the new Legend of Zelda game is moving toward sandbox. And people are excited. MMOs are still extremely popular. Blaming these design features on Aces High's fall from grace is stretching it. If people can find enough things to do they'll always be having fun.

Paradox Interactive's games- namely games like the Europa Universalis series, the Crusader Kings series, the Victoria series, the Hearts of Iron series- consist of the player staring at a map and a bunch of charts and after 20 hours of intensive gameplay- intensive in that it requires a lot of planning ahead, not that it's exciting- you may have made some weird tweak to the outcome of history. Russia is fascist and united the slavs or something, Scotland colonized the Americas and beat England. You have to be a gigantic history nerd to care in the slightest about any possible outcome of the game. 90% of it consists of looking at graphs and tables. There are exciting but realistically short periods of war. Think of a game like Civilization or Total War, but make it 10,000 times more complicated, the goal is to more-or-less survive instead of taking over the world, and it's just not fun. That's a Paradox Interactive game. And they do pretty well for themselves and are constantly expanding.

I also like playing their games a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pepYGRty7k

Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #145 on: July 09, 2014, 03:30:50 PM »
Completely different game styles though.  Open world vs instant action round based, both of them.  A night of AH, even when numbers are awesome, still is a completely different gameplay experience from a night of WT.

Wiley.

I see that but I also see it like sport. Consider competitive anything, but let's go with tennis, because I know my players and "the type". The USTA experienc eis for those who love to play but also want to test themselves. Those who just love to play may not want the test. Yet both love the sport.

With AH, can we agree that the MA/open sandbox is playing just for he love of the sport? Events carry more weight. Something is on the line.

Now, the player base that like sthe current experience is either too small or we're absent awareness "out there". THere may be growth potential for the game structure "As is", although the points made earlier about look and feel still apply.

THe events-based play is, otoh, relatively undevleoped within the game and may offer sifnificantly more growth potential I'm wondering: would there be any sale opp. in a Big Week series of events that were organized and coached by the Staff, broadcast by means of an advert blitz? Perhaps a week of nonstop organized play set up in an SEA specifically for newcomers? You could trance 'em in in groups, with intructions by means of forced country membership and radio tuning.

Bottom line: I don't think AH needs to sell its soul to succeed.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8081
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #146 on: July 09, 2014, 03:54:51 PM »
I think there are probably reasonably sized sections of the player base from WT and WoT who want a sand box WWII experience but are put off by a lot of the baggage that comes with Aces High. It's just a hard game to get into for a lot of reasons. Sand box or close-to-sandbox is still pretty big in gaming, is still what a lot of titles are moving to. Even the new Legend of Zelda game is moving toward sandbox. And people are excited. MMOs are still extremely popular. Blaming these design features on Aces High's fall from grace is stretching it. If people can find enough things to do they'll always be having fun.

I think there's a distinction there though.  Legend of Zelda isn't PvP.  Most MMO's allow for co op vs NPC's and/or limited PVP.  Most pure PVP games are not MMO, but rather are more rounds based like CoD, WT, WoT.

How many MMO pure PVP sandbox games are out there, and more importantly doing well?  Off the cuff, I can only think of Planetside 2 and AH that are open world, MMO, pure PVP.  They are also plagued by hording and spawn camping because those two things go with the territory.

Quote
Paradox Interactive's games- namely games like the Europa Universalis series, the Crusader Kings series, the Victoria series, the Hearts of Iron series- consist of the player staring at a map and a bunch of charts and after 20 hours of intensive gameplay- intensive in that it requires a lot of planning ahead, not that it's exciting- you may have made some weird tweak to the outcome of history. Russia is fascist and united the slavs or something, Scotland colonized the Americas and beat England. You have to be a gigantic history nerd to care in the slightest about any possible outcome of the game. 90% of it consists of looking at graphs and tables. There are exciting but realistically short periods of war. Think of a game like Civilization or Total War, but make it 10,000 times more complicated, the goal is to more-or-less survive instead of taking over the world, and it's just not fun. That's a Paradox Interactive game. And they do pretty well for themselves and are constantly expanding.

I also like playing their games a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pepYGRty7k

Cool.  Completely not my cup of tea, but I get why people like it.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline Wiley

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8081
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #147 on: July 09, 2014, 04:11:15 PM »
I see that but I also see it like sport. Consider competitive anything, but let's go with tennis, because I know my players and "the type". The USTA experienc eis for those who love to play but also want to test themselves. Those who just love to play may not want the test. Yet both love the sport.

Seems to me like a reasonable comparison.  My other hobby is billiards.  League nights vs practice vs tournament play, same stuff.

Quote
With AH, can we agree that the MA/open sandbox is playing just for he love of the sport? Events carry more weight. Something is on the line.

Now, the player base that like sthe current experience is either too small or we're absent awareness "out there". THere may be growth potential for the game structure "As is", although the points made earlier about look and feel still apply.

THe events-based play is, otoh, relatively undevleoped within the game and may offer sifnificantly more growth potential I'm wondering: would there be any sale opp. in a Big Week series of events that were organized and coached by the Staff, broadcast by means of an advert blitz? Perhaps a week of nonstop organized play set up in an SEA specifically for newcomers? You could trance 'em in in groups, with intructions by means of forced country membership and radio tuning.

Bottom line: I don't think AH needs to sell its soul to succeed.

Don't know.  I came up in Warbirds.  Their S3 event is in some ways more grueling than FSO over here.  In my newb days, I spent approximately 4 months of 3 hours every Sunday night before I got my first kill.  Most of those evenings were spent trying to find my squad once I got out of limited icon range.  Granted a lot of it was due to limited icon settings, but it was also the top shelf players in the game going against you all the time.  Looking back, I'm kind of amazed I stuck with it, and thought I was having fun. ;)

I'd be worried about a 2 weeker's capability to function in an event.  Maybe if the forced country membership and radio tuning was done correctly, I still could easily imagine it being completely confusing and overwhelming.

I think you would also run into the Allied bias with a lot of events.  Too many people want to be in their shiny allied ride taking on the forces of e-vil, not as many want to be the forces of e-vil.

You'd also pretty much need to set it up so they get to the action quickly.  Too much flight time before pewpew makes Newb a dull boy in most cases.

As I see it, the heart of the issue is most of the ideas start with, "First, we need a couple hundred players in the same place at the same time with the same motivation.  Then, we have Events/better MA/better DA."

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline caldera

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2014, 04:38:20 PM »
Wiley, I too like the sandbox thing at times. Sometimes, I want practice and self-initiated activity. Other times, I want organization and realism. It's like the difference between playing singles tennis and playing soccer. I've played and enjoyed both - but they are not the same sport. To ensuire broad appeal, the game needs to cover both bases - but currently only covers one for about 124 of 128 hours every week (unless you're in the lunatic time warp, in which case its 100 hour metric days and the coverage is a little different, when lucid).

As for the earlier comments regarding the AvA arena and the "unpopularity" of that arrangement, as evidenced by the population at any time: Using that standard, the only "popular" arena is Late War main. Nobody likes mid, early, WWi, or DA (or those would always be full, doncha know) - OR - there is a significant bandwagon effect and people simply go to the arena that consistently draws the biggest numbers and is the most unregulated. In all, I found this argument to be laughably specious. USing this standard, we'd have ONE arena, or better, choose to shut the whole thing down.

No, the net needs to be broader and the numbers need to be large enough that preferences of all types can be supported. We know BnZ likes the DA. I used to spend a certain amount of time in AvA. Nobody plays in either place any more and so we all end up in the MA, where stupid icons and unrealistic matchup are the order of the day and everybody must love it - otherwise they'd be doing the combat equivalent of masturbation over in the arena of their choice. NEWSFLASH: schtupping even an ugly girl beats being a one-man band, at least sometimes.

I'm starting to think some of the critics of this BBS are right: ossified to the point of being moribund.


There's that word again.  Tell us what's so stupid about them.  What would be "smart" icons to you:  4k? 3k? 2k? 1k? none?  Maybe you don't understand that icons substitute for real-world visual acuity, which no monitor in existence can even come close to.  Turn off your own icons and report back how life-like it is.  ;)
"Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the gate:
 To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late.
 And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds.
 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline USRanger

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10325
      • BoP Home
Re: SAVE ACES HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2014, 05:27:49 PM »
   For now I think HTC should consider letting 128x128 terrains in the MA, in addition to the 256x256 terrains.  Put the 512x512 terrains on leave for now.  With the numbers of players we currently have during U.S. prime time, I think that 128x128 terrains would offer much more sustained combat, as it will substantially decrease the problem of players "looking for a fight but can't find one".  I really wish they would test it out for a week or two, just to see the results, which I believe would be positive for almost everyone.  I'd be happy to supply the terrains.  We just have no use for the huge 512x512 terrains anymore.  Downsizing would increase the fun factor imo. :salute
Axis vs Allies Staff Member
☩ JG11 Sonderstaffel ☩
Flying 'Black[Death] 10' ☩JG11☩

Only the Proud, Only the Strong Ne Desit Virtus