Mustang

[Muzzy]

I've been experimenting a bit with the Pony-D this tour and I am finding that, in simple terms, I really suck at it. I do very well in the FM2 and the Dora, and I'm not exactly a slouch when it comes to the kind of BnZ tactics that I expect would work with the Mustang, but for some reason I can't seem to get the pony to work for me. I'm thinking this might be in part due to the way I usually fly. The 'stang obviously does not have the turning ability of the FM, and while it has comparable speed to the Dora, it doesn't have the roll rate that I've come to rely on. I'm very comfortable flying those planes, but the pony remains a mystery to me.

I'm thinking that maybe the only way to fly the pony is to use the same tactics I've used in the Tempest: stay fast, pick off targets of opportunity and try not to turn too much. I'd really like to avoid simply picking, so I'd like to ask the pony officianados this question: can you dogfight in the Pony, or at the very least, can you employ some form of tactics that don't involve running like a stuck pig all the time?

[Randy1]

. . . can you dogfight in the Pony, or at the very least, can you employ some form of tactics that don't involve running like a stuck pig all the time?

I think you are trying to match the mustang to your fighting type you are use too.  

To start you need to rethink your mindset on a Mustang running all of the time which is common drivel put out by turny-climbers plane people who want all planes to fight them in a turn and or climb fight.  Using the speed of the Mustang's speed to reset its position is no different than a spit turning a tight turn or a Ki or K model going up.  Each plane has its advantages so play to that.

[Latrobe]

The key strength of the Pony is obviously it's speed and good climb rate. Your main tactic in a P-51 is going to be BnZ tactics. Use Yo-Yo's, Chandelle's, and try to keep your speed. The WEP I feel does not add very much at all to acceleration or top speed, but it does help quite a bit in climb rate so save that 5 mins of WEP for when you need that extra boost in the vertical. The P-51 CAN in fact stall fight pretty well (this is something that 99% of the P-51 pilots in game don't seem to realize), but it's not exactly a strong suit of the P-51. It will take quite a bit of experience and skill to win a stall fight against better stall fighters (like a 109) while flying your P-51 but it is possible. Another strength of the P-51 is it's flaps. The first notch of flap can deploy at very high speeds and it makes a world of difference in turning performance. Don't be afraid to drop that first notch or two to get a little more lift so you can get a shot. The flaps deploy VERY quickly so if you can pull them back up instantly and keep your speed.


I've not flown the P-51's a whole lot so I'm just going off my limited knowledge of it and what I've heard the really good Pony pilots say. I'm sure higheye might be around sometime to tell us how awesome the P-51 is and how to fly it. 

[Muzzy]

I thought the 51 was not as good a climber as the Dora, Ki-84 or other climbers?

[Latrobe]

It doesn't quite match the Ki84, or the Dora when it uses WEP (though it does have a better climb rate on MIL power)

The P-51 is no slouch in the climb rate category though with a 3,000 FPM climb rate up to 10K on MIL power, and it improves with WEP.

[TonyJoey]

You can dogfight in the pony, but with a couple rules of thumb. If it is something like a jug or a 190 then it will be a pretty close turning matchup, and you can fight them relatively normally. That is to say you can angles fight them and especially use your flaps to decelerate quicker and get a tighter turn before they can. A K4 is a tougher opponent, and a major threat as it has the power to beat you in an angles fight if things get slow. You have to be patient when flying a 51 and break off if things get too slow with a K4, because a Pony with full flaps out for too long will simply wallow. Your turn rate will take a major hit, and you'll have to just put the nose down, get some separation and reset. Restart the fight fast and use those flaps to get an early angles advantage and make it count before things get too slow again. You can also use this method against many other planes, for example I've done this tactic to a Niki, but it took longer because it starts out with such a large turning advantage.

To fight some of the better turning planes you simply have to E-fight them, as if you get slow at all they will come around on you and most likely out-accelerate you too. Use your top speed advantage to come into the fight fast and then use that to get above them and get an E advantage. Then maintain that advantage through high yo-yo's etc. as you slowly work them lower and lower until they have no where else to go and no E to work with. Be careful with certain planes, especially the Ki-84 and Spit16 as they have the uncanny ability to equalize E states very quickly. You have to stay aggressive, stay close, and stay behind their 3/9 line so they aren't given a chance to gain energy.

On the defensive, I utilize my high speed flaps a lot to force overshoots on planes that don't handle well at high speeds. The 51 can put on the breaks pretty well so you can force some overshoots, but be careful as the 51 also accelerates very poorly and can be killed if your opponent doesn't fall for the overshoot if you don't have some room to dive away. Otherwise use your speed to get away and reset the fight on your terms.  

However, the most important aspect of succeeding in the pony is situational awareness. I like to come into fights at about 8-12k to start out with some altitude to work with. If our base is capped I will come in at 16k as the pony doesn't handle as well between 12k-16k for some reason. Anyway, always be looking around as higher cons can quickly spell death if you lose track of them and they end up on your six, with little options as far as outturning goes. You will be forced to try an overshoot which will leave you vulnerable for other cons. If at all possible drag single cons out away from the main flow of traffic and fight them 1v1 where they don't have help waiting to swoop in and kill you.

[bozon]

The speed of the Mustang is what allows it to be aggressive. The good stang pilots are very aggressive when they have the advantage. At the same time they know to recognize the moment at which the tide has turned against them and go runstag mode again. The ability to escape is what should give you the confidence to engage. Too many players do not know how to switch between the two mind sets.

[katanaso]

If you stay with it for a while, and learn its nuances, you can turnfight with the majority of the planeset, often giving yourself a good chance to win.

From my experiences, the biggest drawback when I get to stallfighting certain planes is the lack of acceleration once I get it too slow.  For example, it can stick on a K4 in nose-down turns, but if the K4 manages to scissor a couple of times and go into a climbing turn, the 51 won't be able to follow it.  Same thing when fighting a Dora.

I'd recommend turning off Combat Trim when you enter a fight.  I usually trim it around 300ias.  It suits my style for walking the flaps, working the throttle, and going for angles.

For all the bad comments, it's a very capable fighter.  It rolls relatively well, slows down fast, has nice rudder authority, and is very stable. 

One last recommendation is the know what your opponent's plane is capable of doing, and learn to negate the advantages it might have.

Btw, TonyJoey is excellent at 1 vs. anything in the 51.  It's a shame there aren't more than a a few handfuls of people that try to turnfight it that way.

[morfiend]

 Muzzy,

  You've been given some good advice so far but if you want to really learn to fly the pony you need to learn to fly it slow! I didnt say fight in it slow I said learn to fly it slow,face it anyone can fly a pony at 300 plus MPH but it becomes difficult to fly once it drops below corner speed! So spend some time in the TA and I suggest you fly figure 8's around a base and try to fly as slow as possible to get an idea of what you can and cant do slow.

  That said when I fly the pony,and it's not often these days I set a hard deck speed,ya speed not alt,once the airspeed drops to about 250 mph I will stop turning and go nose up.This does 2 things it allows me to bank some E and it will tighten up my turn radius.When I go nose up I can roll my lift vector behind the enemy and start to fly for a position above and behind the enemy. From there it's a matter of gunnery.......

  That's all I have,ya it wasnt much but I hope it helps somewhat.



   

[TonyJoey]

Btw, TonyJoey is excellent at 1 vs. anything in the 51.  It's a shame there aren't more than a a few handfuls of people that try to turnfight it that way.

Same to you, I always enjoyed running into your silver nosed Pony, or your 38. 

The speed of the Mustang is what allows it to be aggressive. The good stang pilots are very aggressive when they have the advantage. At the same time they know to recognize the moment at which the tide has turned against them and go runstag mode again. The ability to escape is what should give you the confidence to engage. Too many players do not know how to switch between the two mind sets.

What he said, spot on.  

[BnZs]

The 190D has stellar weight/power ratio and excellent firepower, as well as roll rate. The Fm2 turns very well. Power to weight and turning ability are considered the two most crucial advantages in ACM. The Mustang has neither of these, and doesnt kill on the snapshot like a cannon bird either, so it is unsurprising that you feel like you have stepped down when it comes to  your ride. Worst ENY 5 plane ever! You have the speed and range to choose situations where either superior skill or relative e state give you an advantage to make up for a generally deficient plane, and that is about it.

[BnZs]

Also, for some bizarre reason the flaps on the P51 do not help it as much as the flaps help on other planes. Widewing tested this, anything beyond 1 notch degrades turn rate, and anything beyond 3 notches adds alot of drag without helpin radius that much. Bizarrely, the 190D actually has a smaller full flaps radius, even though it has a worse no flaps radius and its flaps were not designed to aid maneuveringg.

[Muzzy]

Thanks for the great advice all. I've noticed that it is indeed easy for the mustang to become trapped once it loses e, and unlike the FM2 it's not as easy to fight your way out of the situation. I'm going to try and assimilate all this great stuff and see if it helps.

 

[Vraciu]

Thanks for the great advice all. I've noticed that it is indeed easy for the mustang to become trapped once it loses e, and unlike the FM2 it's not as easy to fight your way out of the situation. I'm going to try and assimilate all this great stuff and see if it helps.

 

Mustang flying requires knowing when to get out.  It is nimble but not maneuverable and that can suck you into thinking you can turn it indefinitely, which you can't--unless you are disciplined with your speed.  

I wouldn't go vertical on a merge below 350 or so indicated as most planes will be able to follow you up if you're slower.   Reset the fight as TJ suggested.

It doesn't do anything particularly well except go fast, so it is a challenge--which is why I like flying it.   I was carrying a 4:1 in it a couple tours back and thought I would just retire right there.   Lol!   Now I am trying to press it even harder (too much?) and the results are not good as yet.   (Undisciplined flying perhaps, something you can I'll afford in the Pony.)

Bonez noted a major issue: firepower.   If your gunnery is not good (Exhibit A: me) it is tough to score in it on snapshots.

Lots of good advice above.  Fess is another good Pony driver.   Seek him out.

[danny76]

Can't fly the damned thing for toffee, not to say I am any good in anything else, but the PonyD

450mph to stall in one gentle flat turn, compresses like hell, guns are dreadful, only saving grace is the nice RAF skins.

Much happier in the Pony B for some reason.

Simply cannot BnZ in anything