Author Topic: Mustang  (Read 6652 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2014, 07:48:12 AM »
But isn't the Kurt as fast or faster at all altitudes, and a much better accelerator?

I can dive away I suppose, but wouldn't that put me lower upon coming back to the Kurt while flying an airplane that doesn't climb well? Also terra firma puts a limit on that diving stuff eventually.
(Image removed from quote.)

In my experience against the K4 you can sustain your E longer and run it out of gas.   But you need that E advantage to begin with or he will run you down.   When I have outrun them it has always been a bit of a surprise.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2014, 07:49:37 AM »
Oh.. that is very true about unexpectedness. The ponies that get me are the ones that surprise me - I see him coming in with lots of speed as usual, I initiate a lazy turn saving E to blast the pony as he goes by, reverse expecting to see him spill ahead but instead he is there still behind, flaps out and barrel rolling with me... now there an "oh ****!" moment for you. Sustained turns, radius, charts... the 51 will get me before long before they become applicable.
That is why I've adopted the idea of never underestimate any plane as an axiom. Gotta watch what he actually does, not execute a pre-formed plan based on what one thinks he will do.

Many on many engagements do not work out the same as a duel.
In a furball I'd gladly trade a large amount of turning ability for speed, cannons, and acceleration. The Mustang has *one* of those. I find the Mustang has to be flown more carefully than say a D9, because it can't just light the burners and scoot away nearly as easily. And careful flying...meh.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline bustr

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Re: Mustang - Films
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2014, 04:09:59 PM »
Here are a bunch of films versus different planes, wins, losses, and draws.

I don't remember all of them, but the c202 was PotNPans, and the 47M was Bruv.

I have many more that I named for a particular fight, but I've never gone through and stripped the fight out of them.  Good intentions, short on time.

(Just added one more)


www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109k4.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109g14.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-109G6.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-38j_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-3cons.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-51d.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-c202.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-f6f.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-la7_2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-n1k2.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p38g.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-p47m.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit16.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-spit8.ahf
www.fingerpicked.com/AcesHigh/films/51d/51d-ta152.ahf

Your flap usage during maneuvering is prodigious. Any chance you could speak about it a bit? 

After your ACM skill, it's the key to your maneuvering in the P-51D at all speed ranges between 110 and 390, which obviously takes your opponents by surprise. I noticed CMex squirted you in the face from his N1K2 at the end to get rid of you after all of your work frustrating him. The spits and C202 didn't fair any better trying to excel at their native maneuverability from too high of an initial speed. You pulled that spit16 into a higher speed, which he was over confident about it's maneuverability. Nice use of your higher speed to pull planes out of their maneuverability range before forcing them to over shoot or pulling back into them along with that first notch of flaps.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2014, 04:21:18 PM »
Yes, mostly seems to be kill through deceleration.

Mir, got any films of what to do when the Mustang actually has the energy advantage to work with against a more maneuverable plane? Strange as it may sound, sometimes I feel like I have more questions about how to prosecute that situation than what to do when going for the overshoot...
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline katanaso

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2014, 07:59:21 PM »
Bustr, the way I work the flaps is to extend them to decelerate and try to get inside the other guy's turn, then raise them as needed for that little bit of E that might be needed.  It's a habit that I do in every plane I fly, from the 51 to a 38 to a 190 to a La7.  I know that many planes aren't turning 'better' with the flaps extended, but for my style, I try to get slower, get inside the turns, then go from there, and raise the flaps to build some speed.

It's just been my style to get slow, which goes back to AW4W, and when I first started learning a 38.  Granted, it was easier back then, and doing it in this game leaves me vulnerable a lot, but it's a habit that came back naturally after being out of the game for a decade.

BnZs, I'll look for some films, but I'm not sure if I have any where I have a pure E advantage.  I will check though, and see if I can find some where there is either a noticeable speed or alt. advantage.



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Offline FLS

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Re: Mustang - Films
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2014, 09:04:54 PM »
The buffet sound seems to be continuous when you are in sustained turns a lot of times...I was told to hold just *below* it for best turn...was I told wrong?


The stall buffet indicates that at least a part of a wing is stalled. The wing as a whole is likely close enough to max AOA at that point. With flaps out the outer wings stall later than the inner wings so the best sustained turn with flaps likely includes the stall buffet while the best sustained turn without flaps may or may not include the stall buffet. Since turns are speed and radial g you'll want to note how much drag the buffet adds.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Mustang - Films
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2014, 07:28:23 AM »
The stall buffet indicates that at least a part of a wing is stalled. The wing as a whole is likely close enough to max AOA at that point. With flaps out the outer wings stall later than the inner wings so the best sustained turn with flaps likely includes the stall buffet while the best sustained turn without flaps may or may not include the stall buffet. Since turns are speed and radial g you'll want to note how much drag the buffet adds.
Thank you! This answers a lot of mysteries for me!

"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline katanaso

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Re: Mustang - Films
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2014, 08:38:07 AM »
The stall buffet indicates that at least a part of a wing is stalled. The wing as a whole is likely close enough to max AOA at that point. With flaps out the outer wings stall later than the inner wings so the best sustained turn with flaps likely includes the stall buffet while the best sustained turn without flaps may or may not include the stall buffet. Since turns are speed and radial g you'll want to note how much drag the buffet adds.

Thanks, FLS.  I didn't know this.  I'm just going by feel.

The biggest thing I notice about my flying is the lack of coordinated turns when slow.
mir
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2014, 10:04:57 AM »
Thanks, FLS.  I didn't know this.  I'm just going by feel.

The biggest thing I notice about my flying is the lack of coordinated turns when slow.
That may be insufficient or incorrect use of rudder.



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Offline katanaso

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2014, 10:22:58 AM »
That may be insufficient or incorrect use of rudder.

Oh yeah, I know.  It's one of my faults when fighting slow.  I imagine it would be a horrible ride if it was real. :)
mir
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The most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Offline Puma44

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #117 on: July 17, 2014, 10:36:35 AM »
Oh yeah, I know.  It's one of my faults when fighting slow.  I imagine it would be a horrible ride if it was real. :)
You are absolutely correct.  It is can be Mr. Toad's wild ride.  Accelerated stalls in the real Mustang are quite impressive.  Add some out of coordinated turn, opposite rudder, and it's an instant snap to follow the rudder.

Try going to the TA and fly around at slow speed in the configuration you typically fight at slow speeds.  Pay attention to the ball in the turn and slip indicator.  Keeping the ball centered will put you in coordinated flight.  Use the rudder as you your primary flight control during slow speed fights.  Use of too much aileron in a slow fight can and most often causes a stall, snap, spin event.  

When there is a need to quickly reverse course in a slow fight, use a boot full of rudder vs the ailerons. :salute



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Offline katanaso

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2014, 10:45:18 AM »
Thanks. 

I've done that and practiced over the years.  It doesn't happen for me in the 51.  At a decent speed, it's easy.  I can also do it fine when I'm putzing around slowly and not in a fight, but when I'm fighting out of it's 'comfort zone', the coordinated turns are gone. 

It's one of those things that we can get away with in the game. 

It will be interesting when motion simulators eventually become mainstream in 5, 10, or 20 years.  Pretty much meaning my desk would be covered with puke.  :)

:salute

mir
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The most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Offline Puma44

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Re: Mustang
« Reply #119 on: July 17, 2014, 01:21:42 PM »
Thanks.  

I've done that and practiced over the years.  It doesn't happen for me in the 51.  At a decent speed, it's easy.  I can also do it fine when I'm putzing around slowly and not in a fight, but when I'm fighting out of it's 'comfort zone', the coordinated turns are gone.  

It's one of those things that we can get away with in the game.  

It will be interesting when motion simulators eventually become mainstream in 5, 10, or 20 years.  Pretty much meaning my desk would be covered with puke.  :)

:salute



Yea, I understand.  I have the same problem and have to force myself to slow control inputs or it's the stall, snap, spin event.  It's too bad the computer/stick input/frame rate/lag and all the other delays can't keep up with the brain pan inputs.

Have you tried grabbing a punching buddy to go in the TA and take turns chasing each other around?  A lot of getting use to this computer max performance slow speed maneuvering is muscle memory and some adrenaline rush thrown in.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 01:23:28 PM by Puma44 »



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