Author Topic: AI Missions in the MA  (Read 3194 times)

Offline muzik

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2014, 12:21:22 PM »
I think it would be best to keep the AI bombers set on a course. Either having them attack an enemy HQ or factories/strats.  Giving the control to the player would only see abuse.  And if it was the 'rank' system that determines who controls the formations, well... nothing good could come out of that.

I could see - if left unwatched - nooblets or even veterans using these formations for bombing cvs. Or attacking towns/bases.  I think it would be best to have these formations be 'wire guided'. As in, these missions launch and have a pre-determined course and target. The players can then choose to gun or fly alongside as an escort to protect these valuable AI.  The enemy could either defend or simply ignore the attackers.

Why is it ok to wire guide AI bombers but not ok to wire guide players?

This is a game designed to provide flying activities, don't you think it odd that you couldn't participate in one of the most iconic activities of WW2?

The AI I think should only be able to do 20% damage to any strat. So if it's city for example, after the AI formation flies over, 80% of the city factories remain. Otherwise, players could just leave the AI knowing that the enemy factories/strats would be destroyed in X mins without them having to do anything.

 :headscratch: You think that a player who takes a formation up can leave his AI behind to hit the target on their own?

And with 24 of them, and that 999000 quality shooting, it would make it quite hard to get within 1.2k let alone get a kill.

Each gun has limited range, each bomber is separated by a certain distance. Not every gun in the formation will be in range at the same time.

In any case, that was the whole reason why these bombers were flown in large formations... they weren't intended to be tiny 3 plane groups of sitting ducks.


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Offline bozon

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2014, 03:11:07 PM »
-1

I do not like AI. All experience till now shows that it is not good for gameplay.
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Offline caldera

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2014, 04:48:09 PM »
-1

I do not like AI. All experience till now shows that it is not good for gameplay.

I agree.  However, it might not be a bad idea to have a separate "AI arena" that has constant AI missions running in a two-sided war.  There would always be things to shoot at and would be a way for newer players to gain some confidence before throwing themselves to the wolves in the MA.  There would be no score kept, to insure eventual migration to the MA.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 04:49:58 PM by caldera »
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Offline Tinkles

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2014, 05:42:23 PM »
I agree.  However, it might not be a bad idea to have a separate "AI arena" that has constant AI missions running in a two-sided war.  There would always be things to shoot at and would be a way for newer players to gain some confidence before throwing themselves to the wolves in the MA.  There would be no score kept, to insure eventual migration to the MA.

From what I understand the AvA staff is trying to make this happen in the AvA.  However they still have to work out a few things before that happens.




#1 Why is it ok to wire guide AI bombers but not ok to wire guide players?


#2 This is a game designed to provide flying activities, don't you think it odd that you couldn't participate in one of the most iconic activities of WW2?

#3  :headscratch: You think that a player who takes a formation up can leave his AI behind to hit the target on their own?

#4 Each gun has limited range, each bomber is separated by a certain distance. Not every gun in the formation will be in range at the same time.

In any case, that was the whole reason why these bombers were flown in large formations... they weren't intended to be tiny 3 plane groups of sitting ducks.




#1 AI are NPC drones that are made for the entertainment, assistance or challenge to the player. They can be that NPC you must persuade to befriend a king or someone to bribe to go back to incognito. In this case, the AI bombers would be used as a small re-occuring event that would start a battle over somewhere worthwhile. If you have the AI bombers launch a mission that would go to the enemy HQ or a specific enemy strat. Then the players could choose (but wouldn't have to) defend the bombers via gunnery or escort or up bombers of their own.   Those who like to defend the strats would have a new AI mission every 3-6 hours that would attack their strats.     Those who want the big bomber missions but can't get enough players for them, would be able to join and also bomb the target.

#2 The main arena is simply tools of the WWII era provided in a combat scenario. You can fly peacefully and show off your fly-through-the-hangar skills, or you can duke it out 6 v 1.  If you want realistic events of WWII then go to the AvA/ Scenario arenas for 100% realistic WWII-like combat.

#3 No. I said a majority of the response to this answer in #1, but will repeat myself.  The AI would launch independently of the players, not relying on the players whatsoever to do any launching. The players could then choose whether or not to join the mission. They aren't forced to join, nor do they have to guide the AI drones there.
Now, as for the players bomber AI drones, they would act as they do now. I think you confused the HTC AI with the Player-Bomber drones/AI.  I am not saying that I want the player to be able to spawn AI drones and send them off without any work on the players part. I am saying I want an independent system operated non-player-combatant (NPC) formation of bombers to launch every 3-6 hours that would announce over all channels (so all sides can see) showing that a medium AI formation is going. Then I want it to promptly announce the destination of the mentioned formation, so the enemy knows where to defend. Causing a guarenteed fight, so you have at least two sets of players who are going to attack and defend something.   Pretty much stirring the pot to get a fight, preferably over a worthwhile target (HQ/Strats rather than a town/base). 

#4 I wanted to either have 2 formations of 4 side by side (about 1000 yards from edge wing tip). Or 1 formation of 8 in the 'diamond' formation. About 600 yards apart per position. Not close enough so you could jump from tip to tip, just 600-800 yards away from tip to tip per position.


This would just make it so that we would have stuff attacking worthwhile targets. If players wanted to join, they could for an almost guarenteed fight, assuming that the enemy wants to defend.   In the case that the enemy doesn't defend, only about 1/5th of their factories would be destroyed. That way, it isn't 100% required for you to 'drop what you're doing' and defend something. Making it so the AI formation does some damage, but nothing that would cripple one side, just small-medium damage if every bomber made it to target.

Then the AI return home and land, and it gives a system message like "Bishop formation (insert squadron here) has landed # of # landed - damage done.   Then another mission wouldn't happen for 3-6 hours.  If all the bombers die, then a system message says "Bishop formation (insert squadron here) has been shot down # of # destroyed.


I hope I explained it in a way that made sense. If I did not please elaborate.  :salute
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Offline Tinkles

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2014, 05:44:41 PM »
This would be exactly like the AvA AI mission that happened back in... December 2013 ish. Where we had ju-88s w/ a handful of 109 escorts flying in random patrols. They weren't set out to bomb anything, but they would react accordingly (escorts would attack any enemy cons within a certain range, and bombers would shoot on sight when within range).  Just modify this so these bombers drop on a specific worthwhile target, and some escorts so incase players didn't show up the bombers wouldn't be defenseless and would have some support.

If we have something to show we will & do post shots, if we have nothing new to show we don't.
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Offline CASHEW

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2014, 06:39:16 PM »
I like the idea but. No
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2014, 08:35:00 PM »
+1 - been wanting this for years... :aok
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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2014, 09:15:52 PM »
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Offline Slade

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2014, 07:53:57 AM »
Quote
I do not like AI. All experience till now shows that it is not good for gameplay.

At times when the numbers are so low that 2 out of 3 flights ends without being able to find a red guy to fight...this is a great idea!

+1
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Offline artik

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 08:04:21 AM »
BIG -1... and I fly in low attendance hours (sometimes less than 100)

The entire concept of mega-multi-player game is that you fight other REAL players - you feel their strength and weaknesses, you can "frighten them" and much more.

If I would want to play against AI I would choose 100 other games... not AH!

Don't ruin it. I don't even like AI at AvA.
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Offline Drane

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2014, 08:48:11 AM »
We already have AI trains, barges, and truck convoys re-supplying things.

Could we have formations of AI C47s launch from supply depots, drop supplies where needed, then land nearby or return to launch point?
 
They could be destroyed for some type of kill credit just like the existing supplies.

This could be in parallel to the existing supply routes. 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 08:58:02 AM by Drane »
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Offline muzik

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2014, 12:11:26 PM »

#1 AI are NPC drones that are made for the entertainment, assistance or challenge to the player.

#2  If you want realistic events of WWII then go to the AvA/ Scenario arenas for 100% realistic WWII-like combat.

#3 The AI would launch independently of the players, not relying on the players whatsoever to do any launching.

#4 I wanted to either have 2 formations of 4 side by side (about 1000 yards from edge wing tip). Or 1 formation of 8 in the 'diamond' formation. About 600 yards apart per position. N

1...   Didn't answer the question and I still see no reason a human player couldn't do the same things you want drones to do.

Rules and controls could be put in place to make sure the formations aren't used in a gamey way.

2...    I never said anything about 100% realism. This game is so far from that, it's not even possible in your lifetime.

3...    Ok so you want drones to do it. Everything you want the drones to do would happen with real players controlling the formation.


4...    8 planes wouldnt even get half way to target. One good vet would finish them off in minutes, especially if you used the formation you suggested. They're so far apart, there is no mutual protection.

And lastly, how does a 3-6 hour wait between sorites improve the game at all?

In any case, I'm not disagreeing with having drone formations fly around. I suggested it long ago.

A drones-only formation is great for when numbers are low but your suggestion falls short because there is no "wow" factor for the formation size you chose and fails to provide a historically accurate scenario.......

...NOT for the purpose of historical accuracy, but to attract new players by giving them something they don't get in any other online sim and by moving towards bringing current players together in the same arena.

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Offline muzik

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2014, 12:18:33 PM »
BIG -1... and I fly in low attendance hours (sometimes less than 100)

The entire concept of mega-multi-player game is that you fight other REAL players - you feel their strength and weaknesses, you can "frighten them" and much more.

If I would want to play against AI I would choose 100 other games... not AH!

Don't ruin it. I don't even like AI at AvA.

In case you havent noticed, it's quickly becoming a single player game and it's not "AI-free" now. There are AI trains, boats, planes and guns.

I'm guessing as much as you hate AI, you have never fired on such unworthy targets, so it wouldn't be any stretch for you to avoid AI bombers also.
Fear? You bet your life...but that all leaves you as you reach combat. Then there's a sense of great excitement, a thrill you can't duplicate anywhere...it's actually fun. Yes, I think it is the most exciting fun in the world. — Lt. Col. Robert B. "Westy" Westbrook, USAAF 6/<--lol@mod

Offline Tinkles

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2014, 02:16:32 PM »
1...   Didn't answer the question and I still see no reason a human player couldn't do the same things you want drones to do.

Rules and controls could be put in place to make sure the formations aren't used in a gamey way.

2...    I never said anything about 100% realism. This game is so far from that, it's not even possible in your lifetime.

3...    Ok so you want drones to do it. Everything you want the drones to do would happen with real players controlling the formation.


4...    8 planes wouldnt even get half way to target. One good vet would finish them off in minutes, especially if you used the formation you suggested. They're so far apart, there is no mutual protection.

And lastly, how does a 3-6 hour wait between sorites improve the game at all?

In any case, I'm not disagreeing with having drone formations fly around. I suggested it long ago.

A drones-only formation is great for when numbers are low but your suggestion falls short because there is no "wow" factor for the formation size you chose and fails to provide a historically accurate scenario.......

...NOT for the purpose of historical accuracy, but to attract new players by giving them something they don't get in any other online sim and by moving towards bringing current players together in the same arena.



Well having a minimum of 8 bombers is a fair start.  Then we can talk of 20+  :D 

I didn't really like the idea of player controlled large-formations simply because of the possibility of dick-moves. Where if you only get an AI mission every 3-6 hours, and someone of high rank who is a jerk (like ManAWar back in the day) then that one person has very high firepower to either level a bunch of bases, or completely waste the AI mission entirely.   I don't want the AI mission to completely level a base by themselves or fully disable a strat factory complex. I want them to be able to inflict damage far behind enemy lines, but inflict enough damage that isn't 'ignorable' by the defenders, thus, provoking them to defend their territory.  So basically this would be a combat starter, that could (if they make it to target) inflict damage. 

AI bomber gunners are quite accurate, I flown in with the AvA AI and was killed 1.2k away attacking from a high 3 o clock angle.  I'm not saying they are not killable, but they certainly aren't defenseless either. Having them more spread out (at least near target) would mean they could do more Area of Effect damage, rather than concentrating all ord on one central location (unless attacking HQ).

I agree, everything that I suggest real players could do, but many won't. Due to the fact that it takes quite awhile to get to altitude and then to target, which can all be 'ruined' by one interceptor who knows what they are doing. There are literally only a handful of good bomber gunners in Aces High.  Plus, some players can't hit a target with a bomber or a fighter.  Having AI there would make it so players could at least accompany a mission or defend a mission.    That way it will be possible to have more than 5 or so formations of bombers. It's rather uncommon to see multiple bomber formations anymore, that are together for the same target.

I see these AI missions as bringing many players on all three sides together to attack high value targets. Having a few more numbers there than going solo makes the long flights easier to deal with. And having more firepower increases your chances of actually arriving to target.  Players want these big battles that 'rage on', I think this would start that. Players to defend bombers, and players to attack bombers.

It might work, it might not. I'm not saying this is a 100% work guarentee, but I think it's worthwhile to at least look at.
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Offline jimson

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Re: AI Missions in the MA
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2014, 09:24:10 PM »
I agree.  However, it might not be a bad idea to have a separate "AI arena" that has constant AI missions running in a two-sided war.  There would always be things to shoot at and would be a way for newer players to gain some confidence before throwing themselves to the wolves in the MA.  There would be no score kept, to insure eventual migration to the MA.

There already are a few AI missions going on in the playroom arena: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,364012.0.html

With 86 views and zero comments I have no idea if anyone has even tried them.

The AI mission system has many issues and AFAIK it is currently not possible to make a working mission. The one's in the playroom are the only one's I have that work online right now.

I have faith that it will eventually be sorted out but I believe that the new graphics/terrain engine is priority now so don't know when development of the mission system will resume, but I have huge plans for it when that happens.