Yet Another Plea for Historical Gameplay

[CRASH]

This post was originally a reply for a post introducing the idea of a rolling plane set.  Given the additional ideas I thought it warrented it's own thread.

I thnink it's an excellent idea(rolling plane/perk set).  I, for one, think the MA has gotten completely boring, even with the recent release of 1.08.  I dont play 1/10th the time I used to and I'm a HUGE fan of flight sims.  This is hands down the absolute best game I've ever played on a computer, it's a damn shame it's become such a bore unnecessarily.  Apparently, I'm not the only one who feels like this, 90% of my squad doesn't play anymore either and we've been very active in MMOG's since AW first went to a windows version.  Most of us have spent years now in one sim or another flyin' our p51's against the horde's of spit drivers. It's gotten boring.  
     What's the solution you ask? Well, in my view I'd like to see this type of a rolling plane set introduced along with a two sided map representing say the European theatre.  I wanna fly the historical matchups some.  I want to get out there with  my flight of 15 or 20 p51b's and mix it up with a like number of 109's and fw's.
     Maybe next month do the same thing in the pacific theatre for a week. Maybe, during prime time we could have a trainer or AH staffer post historical strategic mission for each side with extra perks offered for participation (although I think participation would be high without the incentive).  
     Yeah, Yeah, I know..fly the scenarios you say.  Well, they just dont come along that often, are cumbersome to organize and difficult to schedule time in advance.  One has to be willing to alter ones life schedule in advance to make time for a game....thats a little too much of a commitment for many of us who simply fly when we find we have the free time.  Fly the Combat arena?  Well, fine, but there's no numbers there, not because players dont like the idea but because most people go where the numbers are to get in a few quick fights before the wife comes home or their favorite tv show comes on at 10 o'clock or they simply dont have the patience to spend lots of time looking for a fight.  I think given the chance most people would apreciate the chance to participate in this kind of historical play occasionally.
     Could I be accused of trying to force other players into my game? Sure, but the fact is that we've all been playing the MA game for years now and it's gotten stale.  Historical terrains and matchups isn't too much to ask for one week a month.  Hell, we could even test it out with just one weekend and see how people like it.
     Technically the game is absolutely fantastic, none better, it's time to put all this potential to good use.  

CRASH

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: CRASH ]

[hazed-]

i agree to a certaina extent crash.I also love the CT arena when it has the numbers and i tried my best to support it, often sitting in there alone for an hour or so at a time!
I want exactly the sort of thing you are asking for but im not so sure now that what i want is what the majority want,but i do think HTC gave us an impossible task by just putting the CT up and leaving it to us players to try to make the numbers when we are all on at completely different times and see the theatre empty and so go MA.
1 day a week where CT only is up would solve this but its unfair to force players to fly the way we like i think.

[Westy MOL]

"..i do think HTC gave us an impossible task by just putting the CT up and leaving it to us players to try to make the numbers..."

Really. They should have forced the majority in there to play the way they don't want to by shutting down the MA.

 For the record, I enjoyu the CT more than the MA but no by a whole lot. I'm not bored with either. But over the years the main theme running behind the requests for historical arenas is "I'm bored playing this way. Please change it so I can play that way and also make it so others have to play my way now too."

 "Axis vs Allies", "WW2 Arenas" and HA/CT's have been failures be it in AW, WB's or here in AH because of the players, not really the setups. Most people do not want to give up their N1K2's, C-Hogs, Spit IX's, P-51D's  or any other available plane choice for a small and very limited aircraft selection. Perhaps if HTC added some 1.08 strat to the CT things could change there but right now it's just a constant furball between Dover and Calais.  Even that can be enjoyable when there are 20 folks or more playing in (mostly due to the settings for radar and icons which are different from the MA) but that hasn't been seen in a LONG time.

All IMO of course...

 Westy

[CRASH]

Why?  We've been forced into an unorganized MA for years and people are have left because it's just the same old thing and no one at HT seems to care enough to give it a shot.  I'm not advocating that we make a permanent change, I'm just saying give it a try for a weekend or so, if people like it make it a regular event, say 1 week a month or even 1 weekend a month. What do we have to lose?  If it's unpopular we just dont do it anymore.  I think the community would accept it as a  short, welcome break from the standard fair.  

CRASH

 

Originally posted by hazed-:
"but its unfair to force players to fly the way we like i think."

[Zippatuh]

One has to be willing to alter ones life schedule in advance to make time for a game....thats a little too much of a commitment for many of us who simply fly when we find we have the free time.

Exactly.  Therefore I would like to have every aircraft available when I logon.  I believe the CT was offered to help those with a problem with historical match ups.  If it’s not going as planned that is not a reason to change the MA into the CT.  I’m sure it has a following and a lot of folks probably like to fly in there and would more often if the numbers supported it.

The problem is, the fodder like me, doesn’t care about a historical arena.  I just want to get into a fight.  Now, with that said, the TOD’s that I have attended have been extremely exciting.  I missed a chance on the current TOD frame 1 to fly a Tempest but was available to fly a B17 in the second one.  I’m not a bomber pilot.  The pucker factor, the challenge, the anxiety of just knowing 262’s where just in the area, it was all very well spent and exciting 2 hours.  I do not however want to logon to the MA for a week and only have similar situations available to me.

Zippatuh

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Zippatuh ]

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Zippatuh ]

[Nifty]

hazed should have said it's unfair to force the MAJORITY of players to fly the way the MINORITY want to fly.

Personally, I'm in that minority.  However, the CT is utterly boring after a few flights.  It's nothing more than a dueling arena with a planeset and historical terrain.  There's no impact from JABO or buffing.  You can't advance the war, it's based on when Pyro decides to roll the planeset.  Your actions mean nothing but getting perk points.  Those of us that are in the minority realize this and want changes.  Making those changes in the MA is NOT the way to go, in all fairness to the majority of AH paying customers.

Even though base capture in its current form is not what I want to see in the CT, I think that the CT should get the MA strat model (complete with trains and convoys.)  As it is, I'm playing the MA (aside from TOD frames) because there's more to do than just furball.  Maybe if the CT was just like the MA with a planeset (goons for both sides) and radar/icon changes, you'd find 30-50 people in there in peak times.

[CRASH]

Axis vs allies arena's failed in AW because of the herd mentality that keeps people spewing into the arena with the most numbers.  If you recall AW had quite a few arena's between the historical and and all of the old relaxed and full real variants.  
     As for it being just another furrball over the channel, well that's exactly what would happen if we didnt have either AH staff or trainers or even a designated CO posting strategic missions every hour.  I'd be willing to do a tour doing that and I'm sure plenty of other people would as well. If you knew that the allies were gonna be comin' over the channel to blow up your hq or all of your depot's you might think twice about leaving them undefended to furball at 2000 ft over the channel, especially after the coastal base you've been launching from is destroyed and not likley to be up soon because your depots are gone and the radar's out.  Most people furrball at low alt becuase it's a quick way into the action and there's absolutly no incentive to do otherwise.  I think given the chance most would prefer some large scale squadron ops if they knew resistance was expected and a good fite would ensue.  

Give history a chance.

CRASH


 

Originally posted by Westy MOL:
"..i do think HTC gave us an impossible task by just putting the CT up and leaving it to us players to try to make the numbers..."

Really. They should have forced the majority in there to play the way they don't want to by shutting down the MA.

 For the record, I enjoyu the CT more than the MA but no by a whole lot. I'm not bored with either. But over the years the main theme running behind the requests for historical arenas is "I'm bored playing this way. Please change it so I can play that way and also make it so others have to play my way now too."

 "Axis vs Allies", "WW2 Arenas" and HA/CT's have been failures be it in AW, WB's or here in AH because of the players, not really the setups. Most people do not want to give up their N1K2's, C-Hogs, Spit IX's, P-51D's  or any other available plane choice for a small and very limited aircraft selection. Perhaps if HTC added some 1.08 strat to the CT things could change there but right now it's just a constant furball between Dover and Calais.  Even that can be enjoyable when there are 20 folks or more playing in (mostly due to the settings for radar and icons which are different from the MA) but that hasn't been seen in a LONG time.

All IMO of course...

 Westy

[Westy MOL]

Crash, I'd enjoy a weekend of a historical arena only. I'm not trying to sound anti-historical at all. Just pointing out the herd mentality is at work as well as people want to fly what ever and whenever. Hell, HTC coulnd't add killer sheep for one night (Con mission) without there being a literal riot in the MA and on the web boards. These are the same folks (but I'd bet there'd be more) who would have an aneurism if you took their fave ride away and made them fly historically.

 I think getting strat into the CT would bring the numbers up in there which would suit those who have a taste for something different from a free-for-all MA.

 Westy

[Drano]

I'd be more in favor of a rotating ETO/PAC planeset thing similar to what we had in AW. There, when each camp rotated the map switched between ETO or PAC with the associated planeset. You could fly either axis or allied planes. That was cool enough. It kept the planes with somewhat similar performance matched up. There was a period when they rotated the planesets more still starting the first week of the month with early war planes. Next week '42-'43 planes etc. That didn't work out too well either. Couldn't quite get comfy in any one ride.

Problem with that was you had your luftwobble crowd that just wouldn't fly anything but an FW. So when a PAC camp came around they'd rather go fly AWRR than fly something like a 'Stang in FR PAC. Never much mattered to me. I flew a 109 there in ETO camps and learned the P-38 for PAC. Gave me an excuse to broaden my horizons and learn another plane. I admit being pretty happy one month when somehow the 109K fell thru the cracks and got left in the PAC rotation. Running down those pesky Hogs and dispatching them with the 30MM was so much fun.  Bastards picked up on that after a few days and pulled the plug on the 109's hehe.

AvA arena in AW had a similar problem with attendance. I didn't fly there much but I had a great time when I did. Haven't been up much in AH lately but I remember a night a few weeks back in CT had a great time chasing a flight of B-26's--think you were there Hazed? CT should be a different kinda gameplay similar to a scenario IMO. I was tryin to get some help that night calling out your position every minute or so but everyone was interested in furballing. I ended up chasing you guys all the way in and out all by my lonesome. <shrug> Problem is folks treat it as if it were just a smaller MA. Long as that goes on CT will never work.

We'll come up with some kind of alternative I'm sure. MA can get kinda stale after a bit.

                        Drano

[Dago]

I agree with Westy!  How can someone come on here and pontificate on how everyone should be forced to play the way they want to play?

A Historical Arena might seem like fun to some, but over time, we have learned that the majority prefer the MA style of play.  WB had a HA, and guess what?  The dozen guys that liked it were constantly going to the MA begging others to play it with them.  The CA in AH has been just about as successful.

 

We've been forced into an unorganized MA for years

[/b]

I am pretty sure nobody has come to anyones house and "forced" anyone to play in the MA.  If you play in the MA, it is by your own chosing.  

dago

[CRASH]

I'm not really sure why this isn't getting through to people.  Having nothing but a free for all MA means that you are forced to play in that arena or forget AH all together.  CT doesnt count due to herd mentality, people go where the numbers are thereby perpetuating the original.  People fly late model A/C because they are the only thing thats competitive.  If you didnt have to fight LA7's all the time then you wouldnt need overmodeled niks.  A good fight between a p38 and a 109 variant is just as much fun as flyin' rocket powered niks.  
   Like I keep sayin', I'm not advocating we permantly change the MA tomorrow, all I'm saying is lets give it a try for a weekend and see what Joe AH driver thinks.  Seems to me that many of the neysayers are simply afraid that the majority of players would welcome the change and it might be instituted 1 weekend a month.
     "Nuther point, it's not just about what planes we get to fly, it's about using a historical map.  Doesn't have to be a European/Battle of Britain setup, what about Africa, Eastern Front, Solomans?  We've got some really incredible map makers here.  It's also about having some volenteers post missions and offer organized play if people want. Hell, I'll take the first shift.
   Just offering a CT with a limited plane set is just the MA with a limited plane set so why would anyone wanna fly there and limit themselves without any benifit?  
CRASH

 

Originally posted by Dago:
I agree with Westy!  How can someone come on here and pontificate on how everyone should be forced to play the way they want to play?

A Historical Arena might seem like fun to some, but over time, we have learned that the majority prefer the MA style of play.  WB had a HA, and guess what?  The dozen guys that liked it were constantly going to the MA begging others to play it with them.  The CA in AH has been just about as successful.

 

I am pretty sure nobody has come to anyones house and "forced" anyone to play in the MA.  If you play in the MA, it is by your own chosing.  

dago

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: CRASH ]

[Vladd]

Originally posted by CRASH:
I'm not really sure why this isn't getting through to people.  Having nothing but a free for all MA means that you are forced to play in that arena or forget AH all together.  CRASH

Ahh, but Crash isn't a free-for-all CT / RPS / AvA just like the MA, really?

The problem is the 'free for all' aspect if history is what you want.  Historical gameplay would have to be exclusively mission based.  

Now if you want the MA, but with an AvA alternating Euro/Pac setup, then OK. But to me that would just be the same old furball with much less choice and less varied combat. As far as I'm concerned, that makes it in no way more immersive (ahistorical gameplay) and much less interesting due to the limited selection of rides and opposition.

We've all gotten bored from time to time, but the game is what you make of it. Perhaps the MA concept hasn't progressed much from the early days, but there are reasons for that. Squad flying for me keeps my interest pretty high; be it attack missions, escort missions, all orchestrated through the planner so any fellow Bish can join. It's amazing how many people will join in if your squad can fill the first, say, 10 slots at a stroke... It may not have the atmosphere of a scenario, but it does the job for me. Note the use of the word 'Mission.'  


Vladd

[CRASH]

Well, yes and no.  This is how I envision it but I'm not necessarily married to one specific idea.  I'll use Battle of Britain sceanrio because thats what I'm most familiar with it.  On saturday morning Joe AH driver (here after referred to as joe) would log into Ah to find a historically correct map, I guess at half scale.  Being the very start of the weekend and representing early war he'd have an early war european plane set to fly.  Every half hour or hour depending on how things shake out a designated axis or allied CO would post missions for Joe to fly if joe chose to.  The co may post several missions on the hour or half hour, say 1 for buff raid, 1 for fighter sweeps, 1 for rocket attack on French soil..ect.  The CO's would guide the war by the missions they posted and would make every effort within reason to post missions requested by the joes flyin' for his side.  So now, what has joe traded for enduring this limited plane set?  Well, he's got missions posted for him that give him reason to fly (reason to fly is a biggie here).  He knows that it's part of his co's master plan to win the war and that other joes are gonna help him.  He's got all the wingman he could want and even if he gets shot down it's gonna be far more exciting than regular arena play because he has a mission to accomplish that may very well affect the missions the other joes are flyin' and so on.  It's the difference between being part of a team and having a reason to fly compared to just flyin' around to pad your score.  Now, if Joe's not the team player kinda guy he can just grab a ride and have at it. Maybe we could make it so that mission participants recieved extra perk points. Anyway, he knows that anything he takes will be reasonably competitive because the plane set will be set up prior to insure that.  
     As the weekend rolls on the plane set will advance and even if he hates the whole idea of it he wont have to wait long for a late model plane to show up.  Hmm, maybe shortly into the weekend the axis have gained a foothold in england and are now advancing gv's on Londan in standard Blitzkrieg/combined arms fashion. How often does an organized large scale combined arms attack take place in the MA?  Imagine 40 or so tanks advancing on a city covered by 40 or so fiters and ju88's mixed in with 80 or so spits and hurris trying to defend, now that's what I'd call a furball    The posibilities are endless yet we refuse to even give it a try.
     Anyway, during the course of the weekend the co's get feedback from the joes as to whether they'd like to see more of this as in say 1 weekend a month or not.  Maybe we could just inform people to come to the bb to vote in a thread.  If it's not a hit then we forget about it and drive on.  I think the people are mostly in place already, it would be done by volenteers.  I'd like to hear from HT on this to see if it's too much of burden for them to change terrains and stick around for technical questions regarding arena setup.  I think the maps already exist for BoB if I'm not mistaken.  Has the move to 108 negated the use of the existing maps?  Again, some word from HT would be welcome. I think the only way to really test the idea is to do in the MA..Anyway, thats my pitch.

CRASH

 

Originally posted by Vladd:


Ahh, but Crash isn't a free-for-all CT / RPS / AvA just like the MA, really?

Vladd

[zarkov]

Originally posted by Westy MOL:
[QBMost people do not want to give up their N1K2's, C-Hogs, Spit IX's, P-51D's  or any other available plane choice for a small and very limited aircraft selection.[/QB]

N1K2, C-Hog, Spit IX, P-51D - that's four planes.  How can you get any more smaller and limited than that?

[AKSWulfe]

When the CT first came out, there were about 40 people in there.

Still 120-130ppl in the MA.

They saw the numbers in the CT, they obviously disregarded it and went to the MA because that's what they find fun.

The only way you are going to get 100+ people in the CT is going to force people to fly in it, and even then I bet you'll only get 50 people... the rest will log off, I know I would.
-SW