Horrible Shot

[Tinkles]

And ultimately why the K14 and it's family of gyroscopic precession based gunsights were created. Most pilots never really understood gunnery other than surviving trial and error. And just like yourself could not communicate the process other than "seat of their pants".

I'm describing the process you spent hours offline learning by trial and error when I describe the 100mph principle. Your Mil lead at 500yds is the relationship between the speed of the con and your bullet's speed of getting to 500yds. You are describing the con's speed and range when you pick your amount of lead and elevation in reference to your 100Mil main ring for your shot. Lead also varies depending on your con's angle of travel to your own, along with how much G force you are at in your turn the moment you shoot. More G, more bank, more lead, and diminishing returns. Yes trial and error for every shot.

The collimator gunsight reticle is a measuring aid just like the Mil Dot scope reticle used by snipers. They do it sitting still. We do it in flight with G loads and high speeds.

Revi16D 100Mil main ring.

(Image removed from quote.)

N9 101Mil main ring.

(Image removed from quote.) 

Well, it isn't that I don't respect the work you do or anything. However, the gunsights that are that detailed I normally don't use.  I use the revi gunsight for the k4, just because it 'fits' for ranged 30mm shooting. Even though the sights probably weren't made for it, I can line up a 600-800 yard shot with the 30mm (mainly on bombers) and hit. Sort of a spur of the moment McGyver jury-rigging.. deal. 

Plus, my eyesight isn't good, so I can't really tell the details of the sight unless I pull my face towards the screen, which doesn't do my eyes anymore favors nor my back.  ... hmm, I sound old. 


I recommend trial and error really, while the sights do help, knowing how to 'feel for it' in my book is the best way to do it.  But that comes with 'Aerial Combat Experience' from duking it out with other players in unfavorable odds most of the time, and without running.     In order to learn how to be a good pilot, you have to let your pride (and score) go and take the beating, but learn from it.

[bustr]

1. - The MK108 was aimed with the standard Revi 100Mil ring, cross, and 1\6 stadia mark divisions. The MK108 was not used for fighter to fighter air superiority roles. Still, the lead point is about the middle of the right side windscreen panel 100-333yds. And just before the con passed into the left side bar.

2. - Three 50Mil radii and a slight fudge for good measure is leading by the windscreen up rights for 50cal to 20mm in rides with the gunsight centered. Off center the right side follows that rule{+-}, you kentuky windage the left.

3. - Most deflection shooting will use the bottom of the side windscreen panel as your line guide to feed the con to your pipper and bullet stream if you are in a banked turn. I will bank on purpose to get a better dispersion pattern on the con. Pull the trigger as it passes into the upright -400 and closer. At a 45 to 90 degree of your line of travel the radii lead amount stays the same for 100-333yds. Can you visualize adding on to the edge of the 100Mil Revi or N9 ring two addition half rings?? Brings you just to the right hand side upright bar. The visualization is exactly what pilots were taught to do in WW2, and why many couldn't deflection shoot. Enter the K14 gyroscopic precession gunsight.

Using zoom makes the reticle usable as a Mil based guide. I ACM my con and only hit zoom at the shoot moment. The 100mph principle works even in IL2. I set my zoom to make the 100Mil ring about 2 inches on my 24" monitor. And at that zoom with the con 400 or closer, I get hit sprites on him. 100mph principle suddenly works rather than being forced to point and guess through a very tiny ring in the default FoV.

[Skyyr]

In firearms training it is fairly certain a combatant in a life or death self defense situation will be under the effects of a true adrenaline dump (same could probably be said for an F-16 pilot in actual combat).  In video game combat maybe not.

That's what everyone says... until they get into a tournament and they're in the final bracket. Add in any type of unexpected scenarios and you'll find the results become unpredictable.

It's not an "adrenaline rush" that you experience, but rather having to quickly react. Your body reacts quickly by producing adrenaline, even in a game. If you measured your heart rate during a dogfight vs cruising back to base, you'd find it was faster during the dogfight. Same thing with watching a movie with an action scene. It's not a huge issue in gaming, but it's enough that it creates another variable.

That said, you can't both react quickly and have fine motor control in a dynamic environment, not without (literally) tens of thousands of hours of gunnery practice. If you could, if the players here did, then scaling wouldn't be used by the majority of players. Consider that scaling limits control input, so it effectively decreases overall control availability in favor of increasing the range of the most commonly used inputs. Quite literally, scaling is a compensation for poor motor control. It allows the user more margin of error by reducing the distance traveled compared to stick input.

A professional golfer relies on fine motor skills when under tremendous stress such as the final 9 holes while trying to win the British Open in a close contest.  But I doubt they're suffering from the heart racing shakes of a true adrenaline dump.

Not quite. Professional golfers rely on muscle memory. There is very little fine motor control going on; it's almost entirely all coarse motor control. Don't misunderstand, coarse motor control isn't easier than fine motor control, it's simply a different kind of motor control.

Read this: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002364.htm

Swinging a club, regardless of how accurate it is swung, is coarse motor control.

[bustr]

You can reduce the ends of the calibration bands in the jsm file by up to 10,000 on each end so that your joystick only deflects half of it's throw. So to my peddles, but about 5000 on each end. Then scaling has to be used to slow down the effect. Control then becomes very smooth for very little wrist input. Kind of like using the precision joysticks to remote handle high infections items. I have no nose bounce.

[Kodiak]

,

[nrshida]

Are you an awesome shot Bustr? Can we see some films?

[pembquist]

Bustr, the 100mph rule. Is it saying that at 300 or so yards for every 100mph the target is flying you lead by one radi? (as a starting point.)  Or is it more complicated?

[Puma44]

You can reduce the ends of the calibration bands in the jsm file by up to 10,000 on each end so that your joystick only deflects half of it's throw. So to my peddles, but about 5000 on each end. Then scaling has to be used to slow down the effect. Control then becomes very smooth for very little wrist input. Kind of like using the precision joysticks to remote handle high infections items. I have no nose bounce.

Bustr, where is this jam file located?  I too, want to have no nose bounce. 

[FLS]

Puma it sounds like you can get the same effect by gripping your stick at the bottom instead of the top. The advice seems to be to cut your current precision in half then use scaling to try to get some of it back.

[bustr]

In the settings folder every control device has a {.jsm} file. No two sticks or devices will react the same, so you have to play with it like I had to. For pitch and yaw control tweeking, I use the Ju87-G2 for smooth control testing on full zoom because of the large heavy guns under the wings. You can see control problems from full zoom through the gunsight. I use the spit16 for aileron testing. My original use for this was that I found full axis deflection sometimes did not translate into a fully deflected surface especially with the P-51D. For me, this has evolved into a fine control adjustment mechanism over the years.

The x, y calibration lines.

 X Axis
0,32767,65535

Y Axis
0,32767,65535

These lines define the ends and center of your throw. If you shorten the ends by 5000 to 10,000. You only need to move the joystick half it's throw to get full deflection. I've placed rubber tension bands over the yokes on my fighterstick that hold the springs for the center return on my x, y POTs.

I use relative scaling to slow down the initial input off center so I can have very fine center control. Here are my jsm axis lines.

 X Axis
15547,32767,49987,0.017000,0.038000,0.250000
AXIS,ROLL,0,1
0.58,0.62,0.67,0.75,0.84,0.94,1.00,1.00,1.00,1.00

Y Axis
15559,32767,49975,0.016000,0.034000,0.250000
AXIS,PITCH,0,1
0.42,0.44,0.47,0.52,0.58,0.67,0.78,0.88,1.00,1.00

I've done the same to my throttle so that on occasion when I'm at WEP and my hand causes a tiny back slide I don't turn off WEP. It gives me a pre buffer before first engaging the throttle. I found without it, some throttles, when you pulled all the way back, it was not all the way back and the same for full Mil power. Yes you can recalibrate in the game. I no longer have to calibrated in the game now that these are set.

Z Axis
8000,32767,57535,0.000000,0.000000,0.250000

[bustr]

Bustr, the 100mph rule. Is it saying that at 300 or so yards for every 100mph the target is flying you lead by one radi? (as a starting point.)  Or is it more complicated?

Not really. Since you can never be sure, add a radii and hold the trigger a tad longer until you get the hang of it. That's why for most rides shoot as their nose pops out from the windscreen upright bars. Or with slower guns 780-720m\sec, as they touch the outside edge of the bars. After away it becomes muscle memory. As the con's path of flight to yours is 30 degrees and lower, you begin holding lead with the 100Mil ring or just outside of it. 40-90 degrees is where the 100mph principle with radii holdoff applies the most. Lead shooting anything traveling 400 and faster becomes a crap shoot. Shooting under 30 degrees -400 becomes a better choice.

Initially it's confusing because in our game most gunnery is performed with a dot at the default FoV and no zoom. Everyone over years of shooting learns to point here or there and shoot. "Some" are better than others. The confusing part is letting go of your muscle memory to learn how to rely on the ring.

The biggest problem learning to judge lead offline using a 100mph ring(100Mil), the drones are flying 250mph and slower. So you need to use a 65mph ring(70Mil) to get the same radii multiples to account for the cons speed to prove the principle works. When I use a 70Mil ring with the LCG turned on, all of the ring radii lead mirror right out of the AAF text book -400 and closer. WW2 in the US when you learned fixed gunnery, it was in an AT6 with a 70Mil ring chasing kites towed between 225-250mph. Just like our drone circle.

What I'm doing comes out of the AAF Fixed Gunnery manual 1943.

It's included with other gunnery manuals in my Historic Pack.

http://www16.zippyshare.com/v/48694084/file.html

[Puma44]

Puma it sounds like you can get the same effect by gripping your stick at the bottom instead of the top. The advice seems to be to cut your current precision in half then use scaling to try to get some of it back.

That's not a viable option with a HOTAS setup.   I've used numerous scaling options discussed in the forums and have yet to find one that solves the problem.

In the settings folder every control device has a {.jsm} file. No two sticks or devices will react the same, so you have to play with it like I had to. For pitch and yaw control tweeking, I use the Ju87-G2 for smooth control testing on full zoom because of the large heavy guns under the wings. You can see control problems from full zoom through the gunsight. I use the spit16 for aileron testing. My original use for this was that I found full axis deflection sometimes did not translate into a fully deflected surface especially with the P-51D. For me, this has evolved into a fine control adjustment mechanism over the years.

The x, y calibration lines.

 X Axis
0,32767,65535

Y Axis
0,32767,65535

These lines define the ends and center of your throw. If you shorten the ends by 5000 to 10,000. You only need to move the joystick half it's throw to get full deflection. I've placed rubber tension bands over the yokes on my fighterstick that hold the springs for the center return on my x, y POTs.

I use relative scaling to slow down the initial input off center so I can have very fine center control. Here are my jsm axis lines.

 X Axis
15547,32767,49987,0.017000,0.038000,0.250000
AXIS,ROLL,0,1
0.58,0.62,0.67,0.75,0.84,0.94,1.00,1.00,1.00,1.00

Y Axis
15559,32767,49975,0.016000,0.034000,0.250000
AXIS,PITCH,0,1
0.42,0.44,0.47,0.52,0.58,0.67,0.78,0.88,1.00,1.00

I've done the same to my throttle so that on occasion when I'm at WEP and my hand causes a tiny back slide I don't turn off WEP. It gives me a pre buffer before first engaging the throttle. I found without it, some throttles, when you pulled all the way back, it was not all the way back and the same for full Mil power. Yes you can recalibrate in the game. I no longer have to calibrated in the game now that these are set.

Z Axis
8000,32767,57535,0.000000,0.000000,0.250000

Thanks.  I'll give it a try.

[FLS]

That's not a viable option with a HOTAS setup.   I've used numerous scaling options discussed in the forums and have yet to find one that solves the problem.

No it's not a solution. I went the other way and added an extension to mine. I don't use scaling on the stick. I did notice that my joystick driver added deadband even when it was off in AH. Removing deadband from both made the stick more responsive.

[BnZs]

I just checked fighter hit% for the last full tour (173). As far as I can tell, of people posting on this thread Latrobe has the highest at 13.07, followed by Skyyr at 7.22 and Mir at 6.78.

Highest I found just poking around stats further was TonyJoey at 20.08. I submit he may be THE guy to ask about shooting issues.

[BnZs]

You can reduce the throws within game? Interesting. I have the throws somewhat reduced in all three axes on my stick  using software that came with it (reduced in roll a lot) and for some reason it seems to help.

In the settings folder every control device has a {.jsm} file. No two sticks or devices will react the same, so you have to play with it like I had to. For pitch and yaw control tweeking, I use the Ju87-G2 for smooth control testing on full zoom because of the large heavy guns under the wings. You can see control problems from full zoom through the gunsight. I use the spit16 for aileron testing. My original use for this was that I found full axis deflection sometimes did not translate into a fully deflected surface especially with the P-51D. For me, this has evolved into a fine control adjustment mechanism over the years.

The x, y calibration lines.

 X Axis
0,32767,65535

Y Axis
0,32767,65535

These lines define the ends and center of your throw. If you shorten the ends by 5000 to 10,000. You only need to move the joystick half it's throw to get full deflection. I've placed rubber tension bands over the yokes on my fighterstick that hold the springs for the center return on my x, y POTs.

I use relative scaling to slow down the initial input off center so I can have very fine center control. Here are my jsm axis lines.

 X Axis
15547,32767,49987,0.017000,0.038000,0.250000
AXIS,ROLL,0,1
0.58,0.62,0.67,0.75,0.84,0.94,1.00,1.00,1.00,1.00

Y Axis
15559,32767,49975,0.016000,0.034000,0.250000
AXIS,PITCH,0,1
0.42,0.44,0.47,0.52,0.58,0.67,0.78,0.88,1.00,1.00

I've done the same to my throttle so that on occasion when I'm at WEP and my hand causes a tiny back slide I don't turn off WEP. It gives me a pre buffer before first engaging the throttle. I found without it, some throttles, when you pulled all the way back, it was not all the way back and the same for full Mil power. Yes you can recalibrate in the game. I no longer have to calibrated in the game now that these are set.

Z Axis
8000,32767,57535,0.000000,0.000000,0.250000