Author Topic: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human  (Read 12245 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2014, 07:55:19 AM »
But u dont want bombers to bomb your hangars because u want to fight? How realistic is that?
Being able to shut down all fighters upping from a 625 square mile area by bombing three closely grouped buildings? Now THAT is totally unrealistic.


We maybe should make the runways destructable and have real bomb craters so buffs can turn a field into a moon landscape. That would be more realistic.
Go ahead and make runways destructible-IF you will let fighters up and land successfully from any long strip of grass in the general vicinity of the airport.  :devil WWII fighters could and often did operate from the sort of improvised runway that could be built in less than a day and easily repaired in the wake of any bombing raids. German fighters near the end operated from stretches of the Autobahn...
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2014, 08:30:47 AM »
Oh where to begin with this?

Launching 100 buffs on a raid in this game would be perfectly realistic-IF and ONLY if you had 1,000 players to man the various crew positions. Allowing one player to control 3 planes and effectively do the work of 30 crewmen is already a very large realism compromise.
Really, so you think HTC fudged on the flight models, the ballistics, the armor penetration modeling, etc? It looks to me more like they went to a lot of trouble to base those things on real world data.
Hitech once flew in a mock dogfighting tourney against ex-military aviators...and won.
I've played a sim with complex engine management before actually. What complex engine management amounts to is pushing a few more buttons to get off the ground, and that's about it. It makes zero difference to the tactics of dogfighting. Extra button pushing or not, a 190 still performs like a 190, a Spit still performs like a Spit It is completely unlike a situation where level bombers can snipe individual buildings on a field from 20K, when in reality it might be difficult for them to reliably hit the field itself from that alt.
Most fighters in WWII didn't have onboard radar, but they sometimes DID have radar controllers radioing them vectors to the enemy, including a good idea of the altitude of the enemy. Sooooo.......

"Bad wheather?" Hmmm...unlike sniping from 20K, CAVU days actually sometimes occur in the real world.  :devil



3 buffs dont compensate for a 100. If we could drop a 1000 tons of ords on a field then accuracy would not be an issue
. but now we have to do the same job with 5-15k of ords. Thats why we need better accuracy.

The fact that AH won against real aviators prove notthing more than that i was right. U cannot compare this game w the real world. In the real world they dont brought troops to a flag to take a field, they dont up from a field with lots of cons over it just to get "a good fight". U simply have to compromise w reality in order to make a game that is playable for most players.

But if u want realism, then we should have the abillity to cut of fuel supply on a base. With all fuel tanks gone, no fuel. That would be fun right...
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2014, 09:30:42 AM »
3 buffs dont compensate for a 100. If we could drop a 1000 tons of ords on a field then accuracy would not be an issue
. but now we have to do the same job with 5-15k of ords. Thats why we need better accuracy.
You don't get the point. Level bombing is ALREADY highly unrealistic without any sniping ability on top of it because one player can fly a 3 ship box. In reality this was the job of thirty men. But you sit here and say that this is not enough, that you want one person to have the ability to do the job of (your words, your estimate) one THOUSAND men. Really? You want a level of bombing power that in reality took 1,000 men in your lone, individual hands? Why then, when I up to intercept your formation I want to be able to take 999 AI fighters along to help me. It is absolutely the same in principle.

Meanwhile, a single player flying fighters can fly, get this, one single-seat fighter. A tanker can control multiple positions, but he still gets only one tank. A situation equivalent to the bomber mess in fighters would be one pilot able to fly with two "spare" fighters in formation with him that fired in parallel. An equivalent situation in GVs would be a tanker able to up with two flak "drones" shadowing him for protection. These examples show how many advantages level bombers are handed over everything else in the game, how bizarrely unbalanced the situation really is compared to everything else in the game. And you want physically impossible bombing accuracy on top of all that?  :rofl

The fact that AH won against real aviators prove notthing more than that i was right.
Ummm, Hitech won a mock dogfighting tournament that involved flying REAL PLANES while competing against military aviators. I must say, this is a very important part of AH lore/culture for you to have totally missed.

U cannot compare this game w the real world.
This game is compared to the real world all the time, especially by its creator. As I have pointed out already, Hitech and team have done vast amounts of work gathering real world data for the planes, weapons, and vehicles. This seems like a rather odd thing to do if the objective isn't simulating the attributes and abilities of the gear we play with in this game.


U simply have to compromise w reality in order to make a game that is playable for most players.
Well yes, there are some compromises necessary, such as the no one really dying bit. However, allowing entitled hangar banger types to easy-mode smart-bomb levels of accuracy with WWII munitions is hardly necessary to making the game playable. Bombing realistically is too hard? Bah, if some player were to say "Gunnery is too hard! Turn on the lead computing sight in the MA!" he would be ignored, and rightly so. But the easy-mode level bombing accuracy we have right now is as unrealistic as having the computer gun sight turned on during dogfights, perhaps more so, and no one bats an eye.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 09:33:51 AM by BnZs »
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Offline Scherf

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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2014, 10:01:13 AM »
Our bomb sights is doing exactly like the real ones, the only things that differ is that we fly in a very predictable environrment. We know our exact ground speed and the wind conditions and thats why we can have pin point accuracy.
Lancasters with SABS-sights had an accuracy of <90 yards from 20.000 feet during the war. If they had flown in the same conditions as we do they also would have been able to drop on a single building. Its the same thing for the fighters, lack of wind and wing flex makes guns more accurate than they where in real life.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2014, 02:09:16 PM »
Our bomb sights is doing exactly like the real ones,
Really, with real bomb sights you hold down a single button for a bit, put the crosshairs on target and that's it? Funny, I thought being a bombardier required a good bit of training. I also am given to understand that flying a perfect formation of even 3 ships was a little bit harder than firewalling the throttle and hitting "X"...


Lancasters with SABS-sights had an accuracy of <90 yards from 20.000 feet during the war. If they had flown in the same conditions as we do they also would have been able to drop on a single building.
Tests like that are always done under perfect conditions (good visibility, calm air, excellent crew.) In reality the British decided that daylight precision bombing was a waste and went in for carpet bombing at night. Under the conditions we fly under, realistically a Lancaster (with a very skilled operator) should be accurate to ~90 yards, because conditions like we fly under were actively sought after for conducting tests of such equipment.


Its the same thing for the fighters, lack of wind and wing flex makes guns more accurate than they where in real life.
If you can be bothered to up any fighter with nose-mounted guns and test the pattern with the .target command at various yardages, you will be able to plainly see that a considerable bit of random dispersion IS built into guns in Aces High. If you are alleging that there is not enough, then the burden of proof is on you. Most players rarely kill outside of 300, rarely damage outside of 500, and rarely do much of anything beyond 800. I will also point out that any excess MOA of accuracy fighter guns may have is useless to probably 95% of the player base, for the same reason that high-end extremely accurate rifle doesn't convey much if any advantage to an average hunter shooting deer at 100 yards. Aiming fighter guns has not been bizarrely made easy-mode (as I say, the equivalent of our bomb drop accuracy would be turning on the lead computing sight in the MA) so most players cannot use any superlative accuracy that may exist.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2014, 02:41:51 PM »
1. U really dont want to understand do u..?
2- It was achieved during combat operations and under far from perfect conditions.
3. I dont have anything against manual bomb sight. As i have said earlier, u should be able to choose between auto and maual bomb sights and that auto bomb sight should be less accurate than the manual one.
4. We fly in perfect conditions with a predictable wind and a known ground speed. Under those circumstances pin point accuraccy can be achieved. Want to change that -add random wheather. But as i said, we cannot up 100+ bombers to compensate for less accuracy, carpet bombing with 3 buffs is kinda silly and adding a random factor to the bomb drop will simply turn buffs to hangar queens.

So: lack of accuracy in level bombing during the war was a result of lack of precision in the calculations of Ground speed and wind. We dont have any problems with that in AH, therefore is the accuracy is higher.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 02:51:56 PM by Zimme83 »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2014, 03:02:42 PM »
Tests like that are always done under perfect conditions (good visibility, calm air, excellent crew.) In reality the British decided that daylight precision bombing was a waste and went in for carpet bombing at night. Under the conditions we fly under, realistically a Lancaster (with a very skilled operator) should be accurate to ~90 yards, because conditions like we fly under were actively sought after for conducting tests of such equipment.
Read more and don't base your assumptions on 1941.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2014, 07:01:25 PM »
1. U really dont want to understand do u..?
What is there to understand? You, as an individual player, think you should able to have an effect in the game that in reality took 100 bombers and 1,000 crewmen to inflict. The only part I don't understand is why you fail to realize this is absurd.

2- It was achieved during combat operations and under far from perfect conditions.
"The Norden bombsight was developed during a period of United States non-interventionism when the dominant U.S. military strategy was the defense of the U.S. and its possessions. A considerable amount of this strategy was based on stopping attempted invasions by sea, both with direct naval power, and starting in the 1930s, with USAAC airpower.[21] Most air forces of the era invested heavily in dive bombers or torpedo bombers for these roles, but these aircraft generally had limited range; long-range strategic reach would require the use of an aircraft carrier. The Army felt the combination of the Norden and B-17 Flying Fortress presented an alternate solution, believing that small formations of B-17s could successfully attack shipping at long distances from the USAAC's widespread bases. The high altitudes the Norden allowed would help increase the range of the aircraft, especially if equipped with a turbocharger, as with each of the four Wright Cyclone 9 radial engines of the B-17.

In 1940, Barth claimed that "we do not regard a 15 square feet (1.4 m2) ... as being a very difficult target to hit from an altitude of 30,000 feet (9,100 m)".[22] At some point the company started using the pickle barrel imagery, to re-enforce the bombsight's reputation. After the device became publicly known in 1942, In 1943 the Norden company rented Madison Square Garden and folded their own show in between the presentations of the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus. Their show involved dropping a wooden "bomb" into a pickle barrel, at which point a pickle popped out.[23]

These claims were greatly exaggerated; in 1940 the average score for an Air Corps bombardier was a circular error of 120 metres (400 ft) from 4,600 metres (15,000 ft), not 4.6 m from 9,100 m
[/b]

However, as at sea, in early missions over Europe the Norden likewise demonstrated widely varied results. Over Bremen-Vegesack on 19 March 1943, the 303d Bombardment Group dropped 76% of its load within a 300 metres (1,000 ft) ring, representing a CEP well under 300 m (1,000 ft). But on wider inspection, only 50% of American bombs fell within a 400 metres (1⁄4 mi) of the target, and American flyers estimated that as many as 90% of bombs could miss their targets.[30][31][32] The average CEP in 1943 was 370 metres (1,200 ft), meaning that only 16% of the bombs fell within 300 metres (1,000 ft) of the aiming point. A 230-kilogram (500 lb) bomb, standard for precision missions after 1943, had a lethal radius of only 18 to 27 metres (60 to 90 ft).[21]"

4. But as i said, we cannot up 100+ bombers to compensate for less accuracy
You can up 102 bombers IF you have 34 players to fly them. This is at least 68 fewer players than it SHOULD take to up 102 bombers. For absolute realism, it should take about 1,020 men to properly operate the heavies. But being able, as an individual player, to effectively operate 3 planes that it took 30 men to operate in actuality is not enough for you. You say that ONE bomber pilot in this war-equipment simulation should be able to have the same effect as ONE HUNDRED BOMBERS did in real life. But why stop there? Why not give fighter pilots 99 AI wingmen so they can also have the same effect as 100 fighters in the game? It would actually be LESS ridiculous than the bomber situation, because 100 single-seat fighters only required 100 crewmen to operate, not the thousands required to operate a similar number of bombers. On that note, why not let an individual T-34 drivers command a flock of 100 tanks? Then it would look like the Russian front...there is no rational reason to single buffs out for the kind of special treatment you are advocating.

,random factor to the bomb drop will simply turn buffs to hangar queens.
This is not true for many reasons, but even if it were so, so what? The P-40C is largely a hangar queen for many reasons, shall we give it super-powers to encourage people to fly it?


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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2014, 03:13:25 AM »
Meanwhile, a single player flying fighters can fly, get this, one single-seat fighter. A tanker can control multiple positions, but he still gets only one tank. A situation equivalent to the bomber mess in fighters would be one pilot able to fly with two "spare" fighters in formation with him that fired in parallel. An equivalent situation in GVs would be a tanker able to up with two flak "drones" shadowing him for protection. These examples show how many advantages level bombers are handed over everything else in the game, how bizarrely unbalanced the situation really is compared to everything else in the game.

This isn't exactly true.  Players in the game were allowed buff formations to account for the lack of six individual gunners (in certain aircraft) that could all fire in different directions at different targets at the same time.  Even in the current formations they lack that ability.  With death being the most likely outcome faced with multiple attackers buff drivers were allowed additional aircraft.  I see no correlation to a fighter pilot or GVer getting additional aircraft or GVs (although I could see a possible argument for GVers as they also have multiple gun positions but the frequency of them being used at the same time is almost nil in comparison to bombers).  

That said I'm all for the return of the deathstar.  It's been far too long.  That was a really really fun aspect of AW although it could tie up eight people in a single buff (six gunners plus pilot and bombardier) making fights in the arena even harder to find.

In reality the British decided that daylight precision bombing was a waste and went in for carpet bombing at night. Under the conditions we fly under, realistically a Lancaster (with a very skilled operator) should be accurate to ~90 yards, because conditions like we fly under were actively sought after for conducting tests of such equipment.

Didn't the Brits decide to stop daytime bombing because they didn't have fighters that could escort them that deep into enemy territory and their bombers were being eaten alive?  That's a completely different story than the precision of the drop as a reason to change tactics.  I imagine they made the right decision but not for the reasons you insinuate.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 03:19:25 AM by BaldEagl »
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2014, 03:48:33 AM »
"Operationally the SABS far outperformed the Norden. In 1945, the 8th Air Forcewas demonstrating accuracy of about 900 yards (820 m) circular error probable,[29] nowhere near the performance of the SABS-equipped 617th, which reached 80 yards (73 m) during this same period. However, the 8th was also flying at higher altitudes on missions deep within Germany, facing considerably stronger defences and bombing en masse, often through various cloud densities, of 1/10th to 10/10th, often using an on board ground radar providing only a rough view of the target. [5] Moreover, the 617 was a crack unit of veteran crews."

I havent said anything about the norden sight
Most Bombers didnt even had a bomb sight onboard. They dropped when the leader did. So therefore the accuracy was very low.
We dont bomb like the 8th AF did ( we tested it for fun, and the accuracy where not excatly pin point) we bomb more like the 617th but with even better ability to compensate for the wind.

And if u want to know: at 25k+ its hard to even see your target in the bomb sight, the reason its still possible to hit individual hangars is that all bases look the same so u know where they are anyway.

And btw: almost noone bombs hangars from 25k feet. Most buffs are btw 10-15k.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 03:54:17 AM by Zimme83 »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2014, 04:05:37 AM »
Didn't the Brits decide to stop daytime bombing because they didn't have fighters that could escort them that deep into enemy territory and their bombers were being eaten alive?  That's a completely different story than the precision of the drop as a reason to change tactics.  I imagine they made the right decision but not for the reasons you insinuate.
This is true, and he is still obsessing over early war data that predates the navigational and bomb aiming enhancements that were developed during the war.  By 1944 Lancasters bombing at night were more accurate than B-17s bombing during the day with the vaunted Norden bombsight.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2014, 03:26:44 PM »
This isn't exactly true.  Players in the game were allowed buff formations to account for the lack of six individual gunners (in certain aircraft) that could all fire in different directions at different targets at the same time.  Even in the current formations they lack that ability.
6 gunners would be fine, *IF THE EFFORTS OF 6 PLAYERS* were being taken up gunning for that plane. Of course, those six players could not simultaneously be effecting the combat elsewhere while gunning, which is perfectly fair. But that is not how it is in AH. With formation and bomber modeling as it is, one individual can essentially effect the combat in a way that in reality took the efforts of 3 pilots and multiple other crewmen. Meanwhile, one guy upping a single-seat fighter has one plane that it took one guy to fly. One fighter pilot can have the effect of...let me do the math here...yep, 1 fighter pilot. Tanks in reality did require multiple crewmen and AH makes some compromises so one person can effectively operate them, but at least each GVer still gets only one GV. When you look fighter/attack planes, GVs, and level bombers, one of these things is not like the other.

Then Zimme comes along and claims that himself alone sitting in his computer chair being able to control 3 planes that in reality took 30 men to crew is NOT enough. No, he thinks bombers ought to be handed enough reality-compromising advantages that his lone self can have the same effect as ONE HUNDRED bombers which in reality required thousands of crewmen to operate!!!  :confused: :huh :headscratch:    There is absolutely no difference between this and me asking for up to 999 AI wingmen to accompany me on fighter sorties, which is to say both notions are completely absurd. But most people do not think deeply especially when it comes to the status quo, thus they fail to judge the bomber modeling with the same consistency.

Bombers have been handed so many compromise arcade-mode advantages over F/A and GVs that really, if you are doing anything to effect the "war" OTHER than piloting bombers, you are most likely wasting your time. Now if one doesn't care about the war this won't bother one personally, but surely the fact that the outcome fighter-on-fighter engagements is almost irrelevant to who wins maps compared to bombing inanimate objects can't be good in the long term for a WWII air combat game named "Aces High".



That said I'm all for the return of the deathstar.  It's been far too long.  That was a really really fun aspect of AW although it could tie up eight people in a single buff (six gunners plus pilot and bombardier) making fights in the arena even harder to find.
I highly favor multiple gunners being able to join a bomber. That would be handing each individual player a position that was handled in reality by...drumroll please...ONE individual. That is perfect as far as I'm concerned. BUT, if multiple players were allowed to join a bomber, I would expect some compromise back in the direction of reality, such as as one player no longer having every single gun in the formation with a line of sight to the target under his control. One player could jump between controlling the 3 tail guns, the 3 ball turrets, etc. Letting one person control 3 positions on the 3 separate planes is still a big compromise, but an acceptable one IMO. With two players, six of the positions in the formation could be fired simultaneously (and independently, no less). Would this make bombers with 8 players joined more effective and less vulnerable than bomber formations with only one player in control, on average? Yes it would, and this how it SHOULD be, because you would have the efforts of 8 players tied up in that formation instead of driving their own bombers, flying F/A, or GVing elsewhere, and that is a fair balance. As currently modeled though, bombers self-defend so well with only one person that there is hardly any point in having even one person join a formation to gun.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 03:49:04 PM by BnZs »
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2014, 04:36:27 PM »
Drone guns convergence at 500 yards so most of the time their guns are useless because they wont hit anything. Only if the fighter pilot decides to go to the spot where all the gun convergence he will have to worry about the fire from the drones. I only fire the gun im in until that poor numbnut goes into convergence distance. A really good fighter pilot have little to fear from a set of buffs.

Why do u want to add a random factor to bombing that doesn't exist even in the real world? Bombs fall in a very predictable pattern, look at videos from real bomb runs. Only difference btw AH and the real deal is. 1) In AH we do a lot more bomb runs against targets we know exactly where they are and what they look like and 2) We don't have any unknown factors affecting the aiming (wind and wheather). Bombs don't falls randomly, aim right and they land spot on.

If we upped 100 buffs and all dropped when the leader did our accuracy would be just as bad as it was in WW2.

But as i said: I'm positive to a manual bomb sight that require some skills to use and that the auto bomb sight only remain accurate up to 15k.

It is very obvious that this is just another part of your "get rid of anything that can destroy my fighter hangars" campain. But (too bad for u) the MA is more than just up-and-die fights that u like (play in the DA instead). But u should focus on the JABO:s instead, they are the ones that kills your fun.

And No - i didnīt say that i should be able to do the job of 100 buffs, i said that we cannot use 100 buffs to carpet bomb a single base and because of that we use a different tactic. I will btw gladly see u take 999 fighter drones with u, they will do excatly as u do and if u turn too tight u will loose them  :aok
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Bombsight calibration accuracy - involve the human
« Reply #89 on: August 10, 2014, 04:48:02 PM »
Bombs do not fall in a very predicable pattern. Air density/temperature, humidity, wind, rain, Coriolis effect and I'm sure many other variables affect where a bomb will hit. The higher you fly the more these variables will affect the bombs.
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