AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28

[SPKmes]

OK, after 280 posts to this thread, I would like to get an answer on the following:


what does this community consider a "DUEL" is ?


what does this community consider "competition dogfighting 1 vs. 1" is ?


what does this community consider "competition dogfighting 2 vs. 2" is ?


what does this community consider "competition dogfighting 5 vs. 5" is ?


there is a difference, yet this has not been addressed

edit: maybe I should of posted this in the 2vs 2 thread by Changeup, but it's like everyone is jumping back and forth between the 2 threads

2nd edit due to Canspec's post below, I am adding competition to the dogfighting questions above


TC

Pick a plane, pick an alt, pick a fuel load,
fight your fight
enjoy your fight
win, draw, lose
Cheers guys that was fun...let's go again sometime... see you in the virtual skies

No agendas
no big ups to me's
just plain and simple community spirit..

AoM's impromptu DA duels were awesome... mind you, it was all people involved really, Bat, Krup, Bunnies, Irishone, agent, the list goes on.

Kept simple.... plane, fuel, type (1v1, 2v2, all on one) etc etc
and people were honest... no need for film except to learn

A prime example of idiocy in regard to popping the word competition in the mix.... BaldEagles dueling brackets.....The guy does an amazing thing for the community and it just gets pathetic   we now have two freakin pages of rules for the simplest of things...and still people have to question a rule or how it is worded.....

[sunfan1121]

Pick a plane, pick and alt, pick a fuel load,
fight your fight
enjoy your fight
win, draw, lose
Cheers guys that was fun...let's go again sometime... see you in the virtual skies

No agendas
no big ups to me's
just plain and simple community spirit..

AoM's impromptu DA duels were awesome... mind you, it was all people involved really, Bat, Krup, Bunnies, Irishone, agent, the list goes on.

Kept simple.... plane, fuel, type (1v1, 2v2, all on one) etc etc
and people were honest... no need for film except to learn

A prime example of idiocy in regard to popping the word competition in the mix.... BaldEgales dueling brackets.....The guy does an amazing thing for the community and it just gets pathetic   we now have two freakin pages of rules for the simplest of things...and still people have to question a rule or how it is worded.....

I know man, this is some level of crazy.

[Changeup]

I know man, this is some level of crazy.

Yo Suns, you owe me DA time for equipment rental, lol.  Bring yo' donut back here.

[sunfan1121]

Yo Suns, you owe me DA time for equipment rental, lol.  Bring yo' donut back here.

Ha! School just started. I wish I could.

[Changeup]

Ha! School just started. I wish I could.

Understood.  See ya at Christmas break

[Stang]

After having run into Skyyr the other night I can see why we have to have all these stupid rules for a duel. It's unfortunate...

On the other hand, he wasn't very mouthy after getting shot down repeatedly last night.

[Skyyr]

After having run into Skyyr the other night I can see why we have to have all these stupid rules for a duel. It's unfortunate...

On the other hand, he wasn't very mouthy after getting shot down repeatedly last night.

Oh how easily we forget how badly we were beaten when it was 1v1 and 2v2...

(yes, I saved the films)

[Zerstorer]

IT IS THE THREAD THAT WILL NOT DIE!  

LIKE A PHOENIX IT WILL RISE AGAIN AND AGAIN FROM IT'S OWN ASHES.....REBORNNNNNNN!!!!




I find it curious how some will quickly discount a kill in the MA against them as "not indicative of greater skill".  These players insist that the kill MUST be in the DA to "count"!  And yet many will then turn around and imply or claim that their MA kill on a player they don't respect / dislike / hate IS indicative of "superior skill".    

'tis a curious thing.  I guess being possessed of greater "skill" allows them to make the distinction....  




That....or they are just hypocites.  

[DmonSlyr]

IT IS THE THREAD THAT WILL NOT DIE!  

LIKE A PHOENIX IT WILL RISE AGAIN AND AGAIN FROM IT'S OWN ASHES.....REBORNNNNNNN!!!!




I find it curious how some will quickly discount a kill in the MA against them as "not indicative of greater skill".  These players insist that the kill MUST be in the DA to "count"!  And yet many will then turn around and imply or claim that their MA kill on a player they don't respect / dislike / hate IS indicative of "superior skill".    

'tis a curious thing.  I guess being possessed of greater "skill" allows them to make the distinction....  




That....or they are just hypocites.  

Getting kills is a lot easier in the MA than it is dueling. 

Plane types make a big difference considering the type of flying you choose. If I try to turn fight in a p47, while I can turn it well, it still simply will not out turn a spitfire if I can not get an initial shot from the first few merges because a spit has a much better loop rate and is lighter. There for the spit should be able to out turn me and win, if I get slow(which I usually do just for fun sakes) so if that spit kills me and starts claiming I PWN you, well then that's not true because I attempted to fight in a more challenging plane. If I flew a spit you'd easily get out matched. I could have ran to my advantage climb and BnZed you. But that is boring game play to me. If I beat the spit in a turn fight with my 47, then I have skills. Its not the other way around for the spit, although they still might be good sticks, its just an easier fight for the spit.

E states make a huge difference, and with that, the plane you choose can make a a huge difference in fights with one plane being able to /or started off having better E performance.

It's easy to pick kills in the MA.

I mean the MA, while you still have to know the game and be good at flying. Doesn't compare skill as good as going to the DA does. Everyone can get kills in the MA on good sticks. People get picked all of the time. There are too many variables to consider in the MA. So simply shooting someone down In the MA, while can show some skills. It doesn't have the same bearing as going to the DA.

[Skyyr]

Getting kills is a lot easier in the MA than it is dueling.  

Plane types make a big difference considering the type of flying you choose. If I try to turn fight in a p47, while I can turn it well, it still simply will not out turn a spitfire if I can not get an initial shot from the first few merges because a spit has a much better loop rate and is lighter. There for the spit should be able to out turn me and win, if I get slow(which I usually do just for fun sakes) so if that spit kills me and starts claiming I PWN you, well then that's not true because I attempted to fight in a more challenging plane. If I flew a spit you'd easily get out matched. I could have ran to my advantage climb and BnZed you. But that is boring game play to me. If I beat the spit in a turn fight with my 47, then I have skills. Its not the other way around for the spit, although they still might be good sticks, its just an easier fight for the spit.

E states make a huge difference, and with that, the plane you choose can make a a huge difference in fights with one plane being able to /or started off having better E performance.

It's easy to pick kills in the MA.

I mean the MA, while you still have to know the game and be good at flying. Doesn't compare skill as good as going to the DA does. Everyone can get kills in the MA on good sticks. People get picked all of the time. There are too many variables to consider in the MA. So simply shooting someone down In the MA, while can show some skills. It doesn't have the same bearing as going to the DA.

The irony here, of course, is that the DA is supposed to make you better in the MA; however, we have people crying that they died in the MA and they instead want to take the fight to the DA. It's quite literally backwards, from a logical reasoning standpoint.

Train in the DA all you want, but at the end of the day, no one cares about what happens there (going by generated player stats and numbers from the last 5 years or so). The MA is the battlefield. The MA is where you actually employ your "skill." If your skill is so weak that you have to resort to pulling a single player into a closed environment to demonstrate your skill, you've already lost the argument.

You sound like the fighter pilot that wins the 1v1 and 2v2 wingman matches, but gets shot down in combat and cries about how unfair the enemy was because they didn't offer him a pure 1 on 1 turnfight. Quite sad, actually.

[DmonSlyr]

The irony here, of course, is that the DA is supposed to make you better in the MA; however, we have people crying that they died in the MA and they instead want to take the fight to the DA. It's quite literally backwards, from a logical reasoning standpoint.

Train in the DA all you want, but at the end of the day, no one cares about what happens there (going by generated player stats and numbers from the last 5 years or so). The MA is the battlefield. The MA is where you actually employ your "skill." If your skill is so weak that you have to resort to pulling a single player into a closed environment to demonstrate your skill, you've already lost the argument.

You sound like the fighter pilot that wins the 1v1 and 2v2 wingman matches, but gets shot down in combat and cries about how unfair the enemy was because they didn't offer him a pure 1 on 1 turnfight. Quite sad, actually.

It should make you better in the MA, but better at fighting in certain situations and air tactics. It's not gonna make you better at understanding what to do when 6 enimies are buzzing around or below you.

The MA is where the action is at. But if I wanted to prove expterise I'd probably get a lot more recognition being good in a challenging plane that gives me a hard time and makes it a bit easier for people to get kills in me (or tryto) Rather than flying a spit16 or tempest or 190D or la7 constantly which would not be a challenge, I could outurn or out dive and pick people all day. It just wouldnt be much fun for me because it would be too easy. I don't like it when it's too easy. So if I fly a harder plane and still win then I have more skill. If you win by out turning me with a spit16 then yeah it was a good fight but technically you were suppose to win in a turn fight from being in a plane that is capable of turning quickly so it's not OWNing it's just getting another kill that should have happened.

Edit: on phone, can't type well.


Its all about using the planes advantages in the MA to be successful. A p47 isn't suppose to turn fight. But I do it anyway for fun. To see if I can wim the turn fight. The MA would be boring if I played like I do in the FSO.
The DA is more about how well a person knows the plane and their skill of being able to win under even circumstances. So you see more pilot skills rather than plane advantage skills.


Tl;DR

DA shows > pilot skill <plane advantage

MA shows > plane advantage < pilot skill

This is pretty much the difference but not all the time and there are always different variables.

[Zerstorer]

Getting kills is a lot easier in the MA than it is dueling.  

Plane types make a big difference considering the type of flying you choose. If I try to turn fight in a p47, while I can turn it well, it still simply will not out turn a spitfire if I can not get an initial shot from the first few merges because a spit has a much better loop rate and is lighter. There for the spit should be able to out turn me and win, if I get slow(which I usually do just for fun sakes) so if that spit kills me and starts claiming I PWN you, well then that's not true because I attempted to fight in a more challenging plane. If I flew a spit you'd easily get out matched. I could have ran to my advantage climb and BnZed you. But that is boring game play to me. If I beat the spit in a turn fight with my 47, then I have skills. Its not the other way around for the spit, although they still might be good sticks, its just an easier fight for the spit.

E states make a huge difference, and with that, the plane you choose can make a a huge difference in fights with one plane being able to /or started off having better E performance.

It's easy to pick kills in the MA.

I mean the MA, while you still have to know the game and be good at flying. Doesn't compare skill as good as going to the DA does. Everyone can get kills in the MA on good sticks. People get picked all of the time. There are too many variables to consider in the MA. So simply shooting someone down In the MA, while can show some skills. It doesn't have the same bearing as going to the DA.

Sorry, but you completely missed (or ignored) my point, so let me restate it since I think it's important given the post which "resurrected" this thread....yet again.:

These players insist that the kill MUST be in the DA to "count"!  And yet many will then turn around and imply or claim that their MA kill on a player they don't respect / dislike / hate IS indicative of "superior skill".    

If you wish to address the point of my post by all means do so...but don't run past it with blinders on repeating the same tired arguments about the DA

[DmonSlyr]

Sorry, but you completely missed (or ignored) my point, so let me restate it since I think it's important given the post which "resurrected" this thread....yet again.:


If you wish to address the point of my post by all means do so...but don't run past it with blinders on repeating the same tired arguments about the DA

I can't speak for those people but simply getting kills on people in the MA is not enough to prove superiority of skill, I mean I guess they do count toward your kill count I'd imagine. But claiming greatness by picking a few people or winning with a huge E advanage or flying easy planes doesn't condone that their "skill" is necessarily better. That is why it is a lot easier to aknowledge pure skill in the DA.

It also just depends on how the fight started in the MA, what planes were chosen, were the E states even, did one player already have the 6 advantage from the start. I mean there are sooo many variables to consider in the MA fight. While some fights last down the skin and bone and go on for minutes in the MA, that could be close to a fair fight, depending on the plane choosing. Other kills you get on that person may or may not be that hard considering how the fight started. There is a fair amount of "skill" to be shown in the MA. But when you are talking about pwning a p47 in a spit16. That just ain't right. Of course the spit has the advantage from the start if it wasn't dove on initially.

So what those people are referring to was the type of fight they had in the MA vs them. Was it a real fight? Did one have advantage from the start and still lose?

I can't say why they would say that, there are too many variables in MA and who knows how the fight went. They were prob just messing with them, since they do the same to people . Now in the DA, we would be able to decide that now wouldn't we?

[mechanic]

These players insist that the kill MUST be in the DA to "count"!  And yet many will then turn around and imply or claim that their MA kill on a player they don't respect / dislike / hate IS indicative of "superior skill".

I will address your point Fulcrum.

The people who suggest that skill should be shown in the DA have already reached the highest brackets of skill in the MA environment. They know how to use SA and tactics to stay alive indefinitely. They at some point took the step to educate themselves in 1v1 fighting without advantage. After reaching the highest brackets in this advanced skill set they went back to the MA and instead of always trying to fight from advantage they put themselves at a disadvantage and tried to win. Not through some misguided sense of honour or fair play, but simply because it was no longer challenging to win from advantage and therefore no longer fun.

Now when they are then killed by someone who has not developed their skill set enough to realise that the guy they just killed had deliberately engaged them from disadvantage (not through tactical error) it sometimes evokes the desire to teach that person a bit about skill. Especially when that guy tries to rub the victory in their face.

It takes just a few weeks or maybe a few months to learn the skills needed to be successful in the MA. It takes much longer, sometimes years, to learn the skills needed to win in an equal 1v1 fight in the DA.


Personally, I don't mind how I die in the MA. I am so utterly secure in my ability in this cartoon game that anyone who kills me can believe what they like as to the reasons why. But that is a state of mind that has taken a while to reach. The duellers who call MA people out and ask for some real duels are just further behind me on the path to inner peace. In the end, all the duellers will become secure in their ability and not feel the need to prove it by wanting to exhibit themselves in the DA to the ignorant and arrogant.

Because you are ignorant if you think that guy you killed was fighting from disadvantage because they lacked the ability or foresight to meet you in the MA on equal or advantageous footing. And you are also arrogant if you refuse to go test yourself 1v1 in the DA yet still try to profess superiority in the MA setting.

[Skyyr]

I can't speak for those people but simply getting kills on people in the MA is not enough to prove superiority of skill, I mean I guess they do count toward your kill count I'd imagine.

Which is exactly why real fighter pilots only care about their victories in 1 on 1 training duels - their actual combat kills from 20 miles out with 2-3 wingmen don't count.

Oh, wait... it's actually the exact opposite of that.