AoM vs The Damned 2v2 Skyyr/Kruel vs ChangeUp/Triton28

[nrshida]

If you wish to address the point of my post by all means do so...but don't run past it with blinders on repeating the same tired arguments about the DA

You're trying to assert a generalization from the odd individuals behaviour.

The irony here, of course, is that the DA is supposed to make you better in the MA; however, we have people crying that they died in the MA and they instead want to take the fight to the DA. It's quite literally backwards, from a logical reasoning standpoint.

Train in the DA all you want, but at the end of the day, no one cares about what happens there (going by generated player stats and numbers from the last 5 years or so). The MA is the battlefield. The MA is where you actually employ your "skill." If your skill is so weak that you have to resort to pulling a single player into a closed environment to demonstrate your skill, you've already lost the argument.

You sound like the fighter pilot that wins the 1v1 and 2v2 wingman matches, but gets shot down in combat and cries about how unfair the enemy was because they didn't offer him a pure 1 on 1 turnfight. Quite sad, actually.

Extensive dueling undoubtedly makes you a more skilled and capable cartoon pilot. Dying in the MA is basically inevitable when skillful flying (and actual fighting) can be so easily countered by overwhelming numbers, co-ordinated attacks, energy advantage, superior aircraft attributes and so on. The score, your kills, well no one really remembers those either except the person they apply to - because of my point in my second sentence. I think by now we do fully grasp the motif that you and your faction consider score / kills the only thing of importance. Where it all falls down really is that an awful lot of people simply don't agree with you.

Surely every cartoon pilot experiences now and again that feeling of being cleanly out-flown by an opponent. Just shown a clear pair of ACM heels. Often someone doing extraordinary things in unexpected aircraft. Or even in your own aircraft, one you think you have mastered. You never really have this feeling when you are attacked by a Dicta Boelcke-type. It's just not the same thing at all.

You guys approach AH with a sporting mentality it seems and yet Aces High isn't a good comparison to any single sport. It's essentially several sports all being performed in the same stadium. A racetrack with Formula One cars, Moto GP bikes and London Taxis all swirling around together. You drive F1 cars and are shouting at everybody else 'we are faster!'. Err yes, obviously.

[Zerstorer]

You're trying to assert a generalization from the odd individuals behaviour.

Not at all.  I used the qualifier "some" several times.

[Zerstorer]

I will address your point Fulcrum.

The people who suggest that skill should be shown in the DA have already reached the highest brackets of skill in the MA environment. They know how to use SA and tactics to stay alive indefinitely. They at some point took the step to educate themselves in 1v1 fighting without advantage. After reaching the highest brackets in this advanced skill set they went back to the MA and instead of always trying to fight from advantage they put themselves at a disadvantage and tried to win. Not through some misguided sense of honour or fair play, but simply because it was no longer challenging to win from advantage and therefore no longer fun.

Now when they are then killed by someone who has not developed their skill set enough to realise that the guy they just killed had deliberately engaged them from disadvantage (not through tactical error) it sometimes evokes the desire to teach that person a bit about skill. Especially when that guy tries to rub the victory in their face.

It takes just a few weeks or maybe a few months to learn the skills needed to be successful in the MA. It takes much longer, sometimes years, to learn the skills needed to win in an equal 1v1 fight in the DA.


Personally, I don't mind how I die in the MA. I am so utterly secure in my ability in this cartoon game that anyone who kills me can believe what they like as to the reasons why. But that is a state of mind that has taken a while to reach. The duellers who call MA people out and ask for some real duels are just further behind me on the path to inner peace. In the end, all the duellers will become secure in their ability and not feel the need to prove it by wanting to exhibit themselves in the DA to the ignorant and arrogant.

Because you are ignorant if you think that guy you killed was fighting from disadvantage because they lacked the ability or foresight to meet you in the MA on equal or advantageous footing. And you are also arrogant if you refuse to go test yourself 1v1 in the DA yet still try to profess superiority in the MA setting.

Thank you for the respectful reply, batfink.  I agree with many of your points.  I also appreciate your "zen-like" approach to MA life. 

[Skyyr]

Agreed on most points, except:

You guys approach AH with a sporting mentality it seems and yet Aces High isn't a good comparison to any single sport. It's essentially several sports all being performed in the same stadium. A racetrack with Formula One cars, Moto GP bikes and London Taxis all swirling around together. You drive F1 cars and are shouting at everybody else 'we are faster!'. Err yes, obviously.

The point of air combat is to kill the opponent, or at the very least shot down his aircraft, plain and simple (and dare I say, virtually undebatable). The issue then, isn't that we we can't agree on what air combat is, but rather what you think the point of the MA is, ergo my prior statement. We will only have a disagreement if you believe that the point of fighter combat, in the MA, is to shoot everyone down. Obviously, we do, therefore it logically follows that there is some disagreement that true fighter combat should take place in the MA, which brings us back to my original statement.

[nrshida]

Not at all.  I used the qualifier "some" several times.

DmonSlyr? You did seem insistent he answered.

Agreed on most points, except:

The point of air combat is to kill the opponent, or at the very least shot down his aircraft, plain and simple (and dare I say, virtually undebatable). The issue then, isn't that we we can't agree on what air combat is, but rather what you think the point of the MA is, ergo my prior statement. We will only have a disagreement if you believe that the point of fighter combat, in the MA, is to shoot everyone down. Obviously, we do, therefore it logically follows that there is some disagreement that true fighter combat should take place in the MA, which brings us back to my original statement.

You're a bit black and white in your thinking. Only a Sith Lord thinks in such absolutes    I do feel obliged to inform you that this isn't real air combat. It's a virtual environment wherein simulated aerial combat takes place. It's a game. Why is killing opponents the plain and simple objective at the exclusion of everything else?

Can't you at least acknowledge, in the face of overwhelming evidence that not that many AH players actually agree with your view of the game? Are they simply making excuses for suckage?

[DmonSlyr]

DmonSlyr? You did seem insistent he answered.

I did answer.

I actually like bats right up better

[Skyyr]

You're a bit black and white in your thinking. Only a Sith Lord thinks in such absolutes    I do feel obliged to inform you that this isn't real air combat. It's a virtual environment wherein simulated aerial combat takes place. It's a game. Why is killing opponents the plain and simple objective at the exclusion of everything else?

Can't you at least acknowledge, in the face of overwhelming evidence that not that many AH players actually agree with your view of the game? Are they simply making excuses for suckage?

If we agree that this is not actual air combat, then why must ACM apply at all? Logically, anything that achieves a kill must be valid, as this is not actual air combat and therefore not bound by the rules of air combat.

Enter the hypocrisy of such arguments.

If this is air combat, then all that matters is the win. If this is not air combat, then we are free from being prejudiced to adopting any kind of rules that apply to that environment and one needn't know or exercise anything except that which they are satisfied with. Along with this line of thinking, there would be no need to prove skill, as this is not a flight sim and displays of ACM prowess would be for nothing more than personal conceit and vanity.

Strangely enough, both lines of reasoning ultimately come to the same logical conclusion - that in the end, all that matters is the final result. I'm not being black and white in any line of thinking - I'm actually pursuing it according to logic; logic supports this line of thinking fully, not only theoretically, but in practice, both in simulation and in real life.

The issue does not stem from my interpretation of it, the issue stems from those who to turn air combat into some sort of highly-unique vacuum where every element is so tightly regulated that it bears no resemblance to anything related to air combat except the facade one would experience at an airshow... and they in turn want others to accept that. These individuals, speaking objectively in the context of air combat sims, are the virtually-irrelevant minority. Might these individuals be commonplace in this game? Yes, but to the genre of air combat as a whole, they are a delusional minority.

[nrshida]

Not at all. If we agree that this is not actual air combat, then why must ACM apply at all? Logically, anything that achieves a kill must be valid, as this is not actual air combat and therefore not bound by the rules of air combat.

It's simulated so the emphasis on winning or losing is not life or death. Don't you see the decouple?

If this is air combat, then all that matters is the win. If this is not air combat, then we are free from being prejudiced to adopting any kind of rules that apply to that environment and one needn't know or exercise anything except that which they are satisfied with. Along with this line of thinking, there would be no need to prove skill, as this is not a flight sim and displays of ACM prowess would be for nothing more than personal conceit and vanity.

Again very black-white thinking. You're trying to contrive a logical singularity which doesn't exist. It's simulated air combat nested in a recreational activity. I know a guy here who only flies the Hurricane Mark I because his Grandfather was ground crew on one in WWII. Of course he knows ACM, applies ACM and fights. Clearly his primary goal is not to win even though I'm sure he tries to do his best to do so.

Strangely enough, both lines of reasoning ultimately come to the same logical conclusion - that in the end, all that matters is the final result. I'm not being black and white in any line of thinking - I'm actually pursuing it according to pure logic.

Aha! But what if for some the final result is not the kill? Your logic is for nothing if you can't escape the jar of your own perceptual confinement.

The issue does not stem from my interpretation of it, the issues stems from those who to turn air combat into some sort of highly-unique vacuum The issue does not stem from my interpretation of it, the issues stems from those who to turn air combat into some sort of highly-unique vacuum where every element is so tightly regulated that it bears no resemblance to anything related to air combat except the facade one would experience at an airshow... and they in turn want others to accept that. These individuals, speaking objectively in the context of air combat sims, are the virtually-irrelevant minority. Might these individuals be commonplace in this game? Yes, but to the genre of air combat as a whole, they are a disillusioned minority.

There isn't an issue at all apart from the one you are trying to sustain by asserting everyone must play your way or actually even less honestly insisted they must accept your assertions regarding results. Surely they've in fact turned it into a form of entertainment? Haven't you, since presumably you don't gain anything else from your AH activities?

We've touched on this before but what would the Aces High be like if everyone did see it your way? There'd be countless clouds of very fast aircraft jockeying for position with hardly any engagement. Doesn't sound very entertaining for me but at least all of the players would agree on why they're playing and what air combat was all about   

[Canspec]

This is an air combat computer game where each person who pays his $7.95 decides what "air combat game" will mean during the time they decide to play in here. In the end they will then play the game the way that gives them the most enjoyment, whether they are in a squad or not......otherwise, whats the point....

[nrshida]

So just another thought Skyyr and Kruel if he cares to engage. Did you guys start with TnB and move through energy fighting to BnZ or did you start with BnZ in the first place?

[Changeup]

Strangely enough, both lines of reasoning ultimately come to the same logical conclusion - that in the end, all that matters is the final result. I'm not being black and white in any line of thinking - I'm actually pursuing it according to logic; logic supports this line of thinking fully, not only theoretically, but in practice, both in simulation and in real life.

The issue does not stem from my interpretation of it, the issues stems from those who to turn air combat into some sort of highly-unique vacuum where every element is so tightly regulated that it bears no resemblance to anything related to air combat except the facade one would experience at an airshow... and they in turn want others to accept that. These individuals, speaking objectively in the context of air combat sims, are the virtually-irrelevant minority. Might these individuals be commonplace in this game? Yes, but to the genre of air combat as a whole, they are a delusional minority.

This is true.  Bat, Shida, myself and others are simply taking different routes to the same end based on our own travels in the game.  The more I read this argument, the more it is true.  I suspect the reason for the dichotomy is the formula below:

Ego + Actual Ability In Game / Self Image of Ability In game X Ego = Problem with getting beaten in game by any means necessary

However, Batfinks formula is because he has removed ego:
AAIG/SIAIG = 1

That is where the great ones end up....at 1

[Skyyr]

It's simulated so the emphasis on winning or losing is not life or death. Don't you see the decouple?

You're implying that because death is not a risk, that I should treat it less seriously/professionally/what-have-you. That's not an argument, that's an excuse for subpar performance.

Again very black-white thinking. You're trying to contrive a logical singularity which doesn't exist. It's simulated air combat nested in a recreational activity. I know a guy here who only flies the Hurricane Mark I because his Grandfather was ground crew on one in WWII. Of course he knows ACM, applies ACM and fights. Clearly his primary goal is not to win even though I'm sure he tries to do his best to do so.

You're making some sort of inverse relationship between enjoyment and playing to win - there is no connection, they are separate items. Do some people associate them? Yes, but someone who has fun losing is still a loser. You are bent on associating the act of having fun with nullifying the fact of a loss, which is almost Freudian in nature. The loss may not matter to the individual, the individual may actually enjoy facing inevitable loss immensely, but it does not change the fact it is still a loss.

The point of air combat is to shoot down your opponent and not to be shot down yourself; to argue otherwise is to disagree with nearly a century of established air combat doctrine. You can certainly do other things in Aces High, but the single aspect that sets it apart is its supposed flight model fidelity to allow for realistic ACM experiences. ACM itself is entirely focused on the win.

Aha! But what if for some the final result is not the kill? Your logic is for nothing if you can't escape the jar of your own perceptual confinement.

Then those "some" are in the minority. Your stance is akin to arguing that some enjoy racing cars because they enjoy pushing the engine redline to see who lasts longer. Is that possible? Certainly... and some might have immense fun doing so, but that is not the point of racing or those who are attracted to that sport as a general whole.

Likewise, air combat is about destroying the enemy. You might enjoy it for other reasons, but you are in the minority and your views do not align with the purpose of it. By definition, air combat is one of the most logical forms of modern combat today.

There isn't an issue at all apart from the one you are trying to sustain by asserting everyone must play your way or actually even less honestly insisted they must accept your assertions regarding results. Surely they've in fact turned it into a form of entertainment? Haven't you, since presumably you don't gain anything else from your AH activities?

We've not insisted once that anyone play our way. In fact, the only person to insist that others play "their" way in this thread is Changeup, who claimed we had to submit to the community's rules if we wanted to continue our 2v2. We prefer that people play their way. If they want to turnfight in 1 on 1 fights, we'll gladly kill them all day long. You've witnessed this on several occasions now, so why you keep insisting that we are trying to get others to play "our" way is quite confusing. We don't care if anyone plays our way or not.

We've touched on this before but what would the Aces High be like if everyone did see it your way? There'd be countless clouds of very fast aircraft jockeying for position with hardly any engagement. Doesn't sound very entertaining for me but at least all of the players would agree on why they're playing and what air combat was all about  

A disingenuous argument - of course the current playerbase would think that kind of environment wouldn't be very fun, if only due to the fact they are so entrenched in this idea of a 1v1 vacuum.

We flew in that environment for years... and made an absolute killing out of it. That being said, I doubt the average player here wouldn't last a month in a game that was entirely objective-based, with enabled name tags for all to see your name and current amount of held kills, e-fighters galore, and squads of players roaming around to hunt others. Personally, I miss that level of conflict and competitiveness... and would leave in a heartbeat for any game that offered it in an MMO format.

[Skyyr]

So just another thought Skyyr and Kruel if he cares to engage. Did you guys start with TnB and move through energy fighting to BnZ or did you start with BnZ in the first place?

I started turnfighting in a Hurricane IIC. I didn't fly anything else for four years. It was only after understanding the shortcoming of turnfighting (and the mentality it cultivates) did I start learning energy fighting.

[Vraciu]

Which is exactly why real fighter pilots only care about their victories in 1 on 1 training duels - their actual combat kills from 20 miles out with 2-3 wingmen don't count.

Oh, wait... it's actually the exact opposite of that.

 

How many aces do you know?   Or guys who have even one victory?

I have personally met about forty.  I am personal friends with two aces and a few others who shot down three or four, along with a jet crew that nailed a Mig.   

My namesake said it best: "We don't fight wars to win medals."  (He also awarded victories to wingmen that were actually his.  So much for your assertion.)

[Vraciu]

Agreed on most points, except:

The point of air combat is to kill the opponent, or at the very least shot down his aircraft, plain and simple (and dare I say, virtually undebatable). The issue then, isn't that we we can't agree on what air combat is, but rather what you think the point of the MA is, ergo my prior statement. We will only have a disagreement if you believe that the point of fighter combat, in the MA, is to shoot everyone down. Obviously, we do, therefore it logically follows that there is some disagreement that true fighter combat should take place in the MA, which brings us back to my original statement.

It is far more nuanced than that, sir.