Defending the strats - a case study

[Lusche]

Preface

Strategic raiders tend to come in at very high altitudes. Because unlike with tactical (base) attacks, it totally pays off to spend that much time for a climbout because

- There's no dynamic battle situation to account for
- Three hours of object downtime doesn't mean your 1 hour of climbing is wasted for killing something that's back up in 15 minutes.

This faces the defender with a real challenge, especially as with the new dispersed strats and a strat raider is not easily to spot any more.

The question is: What is the closest distance the incoming bomber can have for an interceptor to take of with still at least  a minimum chance of engaging successfully?

The setting:

Interceptor:
Assumes taking one of the best planes for the job in terms of climb rate, speed, and firepower: The Ta 152H with 100% fuel

The interceptor takes time to get to altitude, to get up to a reasonable combat speed (400mph) and needs time to combat the bombers. The latter one I set to an arbitrary 5 minutes, though in the case of 30k+ bombers this is an extremely short timespan with little chance to kill all three bombers.

Bombers:
Assumes three very typical cases:

Lancaster at 20k
B-24 at 25k
B-17 at 34k (maximum loaded altitude and much more prevalent than some might think)
B-29 at 30K and 34K as well.

I tested the bombers combat speeds with bombs, as well as the climbing time of the Ta 152H (Full initial WEP) to the respective altitudes.
I spare you the details and jump directly to

the results:

Bomber      min. distance
Lancaster      61 miles
B-24              75 miles
B-29 at 30k
& B-17 @ 34K   110 miles
B-29 @ 34k   140 miles

I have to emphasize again that especially with the very high altitude bombers, these are the bare minimum distances, only very few fighter pilots will actually have a chance to get the job done before the bombs are falling.

To show what these distances mean on a map, I visualised them on the current map, Fester (mainly just because I had the graphics up anyway). But you can easily transfer this to most other maps in rotation. Just think of NDsisles with the factories being right on the frontlines!


The range circles were centered on City and on the AA factory.

As you can see, the high alt minimum distance circles are already extending past the front lines. Which means what you thought to be the darbar of some Jabos or bombers doing attacks on some nearby bases may actually turn out to be city raiders.
Unless they fly in "carelessly" low or are unlucky, most shot down strat raiders die only logn after they dropped their bombs.


The only reasonable solution for that dilemma: Flying cap over the strats.
But the relatively small population during much of the day, dispersion of the strats and most importantly the fact that it takes only one buff in three hours to have alasting effect makes it not a very realistic option - because it very well might include 1-2 hours of uneventful crusing up& down.

[DREDIOCK]

The only problem with strat targets is other then dar. They have no meaningful effect on the game and as such thus provide little reason to defend them.
Hell more then half the time people barely up to do anything about HQ getting hit until after its been hit to resupply it. When was the last time you heard a call out "Raid on the ammo factory!!!"
I dont think I've ever seen such an urgent message
The little time I spend in bombers I've hit strats and typically dont encounter any resistance until after I've dropped and am on my way home and then its usually only 1 or two planes.

Be better off stealing a page from AW and include factories that if destroyed deny a popular weapon platform for even a limited amount of time such as they had with the spit factory. People whined when it was hit yes. But they also typically tried to defend it even though spits were only disabled for something like 20 min.

It had a real but limited impact on the game that people found a need to protect.

[Lusche]

They have no meaningful effect on the game and as such thus provide little reason to defend them.

Increasing downtimes of ack or ords from 30 to up to 150 minutes is "no meanignful effect?"

[GhostCDB]

Increasing downtimes of ack or ords from 30 to up to 150 minutes is "no meanignful effect?"

 

[Lusche]

 

[flatiron1]

 

[MrKrabs]

Still a better lovestory than twilight...

[caldera]

   

[Karnak]

What would the ring for the Mossie XVI and Ar234 look like?

[Lusche]

What would the ring for the Mossie XVI and Ar234 look like?

For a 25K mossie with 1x4k internal about 34% larger than for a B-24 at same altitude... almost 100 miles
30k Mossie: A tad larger than the 30k B-29 circle

For a 20k Arado, assuming the Ta would have to climb to 25k for some additional dive speed... slightly over 100 miles


All this, like the inital examples, are pretty much under ideal conditions with the fighetr havign a good idea what to expect, and where.

[715]

The only problem with strat targets is other then dar. They have no meaningful effect on the game and as such thus provide little reason to defend them.
Hell more then half the time people barely up to do anything about HQ getting hit until after its been hit to resupply it. When was the last time you heard a call out "Raid on the ammo factory!!!"
I dont think I've ever seen such an urgent message
The little time I spend in bombers I've hit strats and typically dont encounter any resistance until after I've dropped and am on my way home and then its usually only 1 or two planes.

Be better off stealing a page from AW and include factories that if destroyed deny a popular weapon platform for even a limited amount of time such as they had with the spit factory. People whined when it was hit yes. But they also typically tried to defend it even though spits were only disabled for something like 20 min.

It had a real but limited impact on the game that people found a need to protect.

Wow.  I really don't understand this response at all.  What did I read incorrectly?

Lusche gave clearly presented irrefutable data demonstrating that it is physically impossible to intercept bombers before they take out the strats and your response is "we need to make the pain worse so people try harder"?  How will "trying harder" overcome physically impossible?  Do you also feel that the worlds energy problems can be solved if people just didn't give up so easily on perpetual motion machines?

[Xavier]

This is one of the reasons I miss the old strat system, both as a bomber and interceptor. As a bomber you had the additional challenge of flying through more ack, and a higher chance of running into someone. In maps like Fester's it's rare to see an upper unless you're crossing multiple radar rings, and even then most of the time you still get to drop your bombs. Also, with the centralized strats there's a higher risk but also a higher reward, like hitting city + AAA in a single sortie, the classic base taking combo.

From an interceptor's position centralized strats let you patrol a few sectors knowing that the most probable approaches are from one or two diections, so you have a chance to intercept the buffs. Also, The patrol zone isn't spread across hundreds of miles. For example, in Fester's map you could be patrolling AAA, but if someone hits city there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

One of my favorite tactics is flying NOE in Lancasters to HQ, popping barely a sector away and wep climbing before the drop. Such a trip is possible on HQ or city, but in the centralized strats it was pretty much impossible since the ack tears you apart.

And It's quite obvious that the most important factory (AAA) in the current map is always much, much closer to one country than the others. If we're not going back to centralized strats at least it could be put in line with city and HQ but further away, to the current distance from the edge of the map.

[DREDIOCK]

Increasing downtimes of ack or ords from 30 to up to 150 minutes is "no meanignful effect?"

None that anyone cares about. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. But do You see many people rushing to defend those targets? I dont

[hotcoffe]

if they just add alt. and speed information to dar contacts that will solve all the problem...

[DREDIOCK]

Wow.  I really don't understand this response at all.  What did I read incorrectly?

Lusche gave clearly presented irrefutable data demonstrating that it is physically impossible to intercept bombers before they take out the strats and your response is "we need to make the pain worse so people try harder"?  How will "trying harder" overcome physically impossible?  Do you also feel that the worlds energy problems can be solved if people just didn't give up so easily on perpetual motion machines?

And Im saying that people in general dont bother even trying to stop them.

Most of the strat raiders I see lately come in at around 20K unless its a really large mission. An alt I routinely see fighters at

Personally I'd like to see more of a chain of supply  and zone bases in a combination of the old old strat system and the newer one with the large cities we had not too long ago kind of a local and national strat. Local would be worth less but easier to hit. national would be worth more but harder to hit
As well as weapons platform factory (pick one) AKA high value targets