Hammerhead Torque/Flick Roll Thingy

[Someguy63]

How do you do this move? Mainly in a 109.

I have tried but can't seem to get the movement right, and if I could it's not smooth.

Please, if you respond, none of the "but this move shouldn't be done regularly and is a last resort bah bah bah" because I already know.
Like this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQfhed4O_iI

Thanks 

[FLS]

For an aerobatic hammerhead you want 0 lift as you go vertical, reduce throttle as you slow down so you don't torque off, then time the rudder kick so you pivot around your wingtip.

For some of the torque moves in aerobatic aircraft we just don't have the power to weight to reproduce them.

For the tumble in the video I believe we are limited by the reduced elevator deflection in AH. We get enough deflection for normal flying but we don't appear to have the full range of the actual aircraft. I'm hoping it's not too much work for HiTech to give us the option of full range elevator in a future version.

What's generally done in the 109 is a snap roll in a climb, point the nose up and push the stick to the left side then back while pushing the right rudder forward. Once you start rotating use throttle to adjust.

[Someguy63]

For an aerobatic hammerhead you want 0 lift as you go vertical, reduce throttle as you slow down so you don't torque off, then time the rudder kick so you pivot around your wingtip.

For some of the torque moves in aerobatic aircraft we just don't have the power to weight to reproduce them.

For the tumble in the video I believe we are limited by the reduced elevator deflection in AH. We get enough deflection for normal flying but we don't appear to have the full range of the actual aircraft. I'm hoping it's not too much work for HiTech to give us the option of full range elevator in a future version.

What's generally done in the 109 is a snap roll in a climb, point the nose up and push the stick to the left side then back while pushing the right rudder forward. Once you start rotating use throttle to adjust.

Thanks this was extremely helpful!

As for a question:

What's generally done in the 109 is a snap roll in a climb, point the nose up and push the stick to the left side then back while pushing the right rudder forward. Once you start rotating use throttle to adjust.

This must be done about simultaneously for it to work correctly, while at about a speed of around say 30mph where there is nearly no airspeed?

And just as a side note: I didn't think that right rudder would work correctly, I was using left aileron and rudder thinking it would work but when I reapplied throttle the torque pulled me into a spin that would have put me out of position in combat. Not only that, but during the pivoting part of the maneuver it was rather slow using both left control surfaces. I thank you for this again sir! 

[FLS]

The snap roll is a stall of one wing so the other wing needs to be flying for the lift to roll you. You also need momentum for the rotation but not so much that you fly backwards.

The throttle controls the thrust, spiral slipstream, gyroscopic precession, and any P factor so play around with it after you depart from controlled flight.  Practice at different speeds and climb angles. Try inverted negative snap rolls. Have fun. 

[duie]

1) make sure you have auto trim off  (crtl X ) and 2)  cut your engine off ... some planes  will twist around even w/  throttle at 0.... test it yourself before posting how wrong I am.

[FLS]

Duie can you see any advantage or disadvantage to turning off your engine instead of adjusting the throttle?

[DmonSlyr]

1) make sure you have auto trim off  (crtl X ) and 2)  cut your engine off ... some planes  will twist around even w/  throttle at 0.... test it yourself before posting how wrong I am.

Did Patty Wagstaff cut her engine off at the top of the HS stall?

I don't think so.

And turning combat trim off doesn't do anything either.

You said the 109 so I'll tell ya.

It likes to be jerked around real good. So if you are at the top of climb, first figure out which way you want to go. Second if you are planning to go right, always cut throttle at the top, as your plane will naturally want to turn right with no heavy tork, then whip that baby over by yanking the stick in the south east position (right back corner) and thrust some heavy right rudder. I like to go right because planes will be battling their own tork while losing E trying to shoot.  You can get a nice flip over and they will be stalled so nicely.

[Someguy63]

Did Patty Wagstaff cut her engine off at the top of the HS stall?

I don't think so.

And turning combat trim off doesn't do anything either.

You said the 109 so I'll tell ya.

It likes to be jerked around real good. So if you are at the top of climb, first figure out which way you want to go. Second if you are planning to go right, always cut throttle at the top, as your plane will naturally want to turn right with no heavy tork, then whip that baby over by yanking the stick in the south east position (right back corner) and thrust some heavy right rudder. I like to go right because planes will be battling their own tork while losing E trying to shoot.  You can get a nice flip over and they will be stalled so nicely.

Oh yeah I know how to do the movement to the right but it's the one to the left I am still having problems with.

I used right rudder as FLS said but that input seems to produce movement that only hastens an unwanted stall.

I was reading Agent360's post from years back and he said left rudder w/ aileron is best but I could not do it even get the movement down right.

He says nose down...then bull pack hard left and add full throttle to provide the pivot around the left wingtip. I only end up getting into one of those -G stalls...just couldn't do it.

[Skyyr]

See Rule #4

[Someguy63]

See Rule #4

[FLS]

Oh yeah I know how to do the movement to the right but it's the one to the left I am still having problems with.

I used right rudder as FLS said but that input seems to produce movement that only hastens an unwanted stall.

I was reading Agent360's post from years back and he said left rudder w/ aileron is best but I could not do it even get the movement down right.

He says nose down...then bull pack hard left and add full throttle to provide the pivot around the left wingtip. I only end up getting into one of those -G stalls...just couldn't do it.

The hammerhead turn and the flick roll turn are different maneuvers.  The hammerhead is flown under control. The hammerhead turn is also called a stall turn but at the 0 lift angle of attack you don't stall and lose lift because you have no lift to lose. Once you pivot off your wingtip and nose down you set your AOA and start flying again.  The vertical flick roll or torque roll is a departure from controlled flight with a pivot around your CG, also with a quick return to flying but that recovery time is the reason neither one is considered efficient for ACM.

See Rule #4

[Skyyr]

See Rule #4

[FLS]

You made a snide remark denying your snide remark.  

Hammerheads in low powered aircraft don't require the same throttle work that high powered aircraft do.

My throttle advice in this thread is mostly about the snap roll after departure but my Bf-109 hammerhead advice stands.


One thing you might notice and ascribe to the flight model is the pitch scaling I mentioned earlier. Instead of moving the stick slightly within it's full range like the actual aircraft we move the stick proportionally more for the same change in elevator angle. This gives us finer positional control of the stick in place of the resistance you normally feel from air pressure. The downside is the reduced elevator travel which isn't noticeable in normal flying but it limits our pitch control for aerobatics like tumbles.

[Skyyr]

See Rule #4

[Skyyr]

Actually, FLS - I have a simple challenge for you, that will satisfy all parties involved.

Please make an AH film of performing 5 consecutive hammerheads, in an 109K, against torque (to the right). All parameters for a proper hammerhead must be followed, including:

- Flight path, once nose-high, should be perpendicular to the horizon (i.e. straight vertical)
- Rudder should not be applied to correct the flight path, except to maintain nose orientation (i.e. the flight path viewed from the ground should not change whatsoever)
- Additional rudder to push the nose past vertical, onto the falling wing, should not be applied until the right before the maneuver is to be executed (i.e. right before the wing stalls, without allowing an actual stall to occur)
- The angle of the wings should maintain orientation with the original flight path (i.e. the wings should remain vertical when viewed from a side profile, in relation to the horizon)
- Once the flight direction has changed, the nose should be pointing directly at the original flight path, only downwards

At no point should the following happen:
- The plane should not fall over on its back, or allow the wings to be in an orientation other than vertical to the horizon
- Rudder should not be used to "skid" the plane to maintain vertical orientation (used to compensate for poor entry control)
- The plane must not rotate about it's longitudinal axis (i.e. roll) while performing the maneuver; the top of the cockpit/aircraft should be facing the same direction during the maneuver
- The aircraft should not "fall" from stalling, not should a complete stall of either wing be allowed to happen
- Throttle should NOT be used to control the descent of the nose or the timing of the maneuver once entered; throttle may only be set prior to the maneuver

If the aircraft fails to meet the criteria above, it is not an actual hammerhead. I apologize for not posting all of the criteria, as I don't have my aerobatics materials with me.

And just for reference, here's a hammerhead in an Extra 300 (a high performance aircraft). Notice the throttle isn't touched: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aaVOrUCJKOo

That shouldn't be too hard, should it? You are a trainer and so you're probably WELL versed in performing proper hammerheads. Once done, please upload the film here.

Thanks.