Ta-152

[Debrody]

It is hilarious how comments on "personal ability" trump natural sciences on this board. It would be so much more constructive if the comments would concentrate on the plane and its attributes instead of the e-peens of the poster and his favorite peers.

...but of course the fundamental problem with that is that it would require a brain...and there in lies the problem...

hi there, having fun as usually? 

[MiloMorai]

Thanks for the info. I did not know that. Any clear reason why was this program canceled? I know that high alt performance was one of the problems with the 190A's and 109s were considered better up high.

If my memory doesn't fail me, the a/c used the DB603 engine which was to be used in other a/c.

[GScholz]

If my memory doesn't fail me, the a/c used the DB603 engine which was to be used in other a/c.

Yes. From the very beginning the 190 had to use second-rate engines due to priority going to the Messerschmitt planes. The Me 410 had dibs on the DB 603.

[bozon]

Yes. From the very beginning the 190 had to use second-rate engines due to priority going to the Messerschmitt planes. The Me 410 had dibs on the DB 603.

Really? they prioritized the engines to the 410 over the 190A?!
Not only the 410 was not very successful, it took two of those engines to make it not so successful...

[GScholz]

Fw 190B... And in 1942 they didn't know the 410 wouldn't be that successful...

[morfiend]

If my memory doesn't fail me, the a/c used the DB603 engine which was to be used in other a/c.

  This ^^^^

  Also there were other issues,cockpit sealing was a problem for presurization,the blower caused the engine to disassemble.... And IIRC Willy had a highalt job in the works and well we all know he had the connection Tank didnt.


   

[icepac]

The tempest turned the wrong way which gave away any turn advantage it had over the 152.

[Rich46yo]

I'd like to find a good book on the 190 and the TA-152. Kurt Tank was a fascinating character.

[MiloMorai]

I'd like to find a good book on the 190 and the TA-152. Kurt Tank was a fascinating character.

Dieter Harman books (Ta152 and Fw190D)
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Ta-152-Luftwaffes-High-Altitude/dp/0764308602
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-190-Long-Nose-Illustrated/dp/0764318764/ref=pd_sim_b_7?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QMXPE30MBYFT9X4318P

Don't have this one but have other M-M books which are good
http://www.amazon.com/The-Focke-Wulf-152-Monogram-Monarch/dp/0914144537/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1AV4Y10TSQ1CKK66KZB3

[Zerstorer]

Capt. Eric Brown's assessment from his book "Wings of the Luftwaffe".  Note I pulled this from a web source, I don't have the book near me at the moment but will verify when I get home but I from memory it seems to say what I read in the book:

"Flying the Ta 152

Having flown the BMW 801-powered Fw 190 on a many occaissions and in several versions, I was understandably delighted when an opportunity arose to get my hands on what was, from the production standpoint at least, the ultimate development of Kurt Tank's superb basic design, the high-flying Ta 152H-1. ....

....


High performance at all altitudes was ensured by its 18.71 Imp gal (85 l) of nitrous oxide (GM 1) and 15.4 Imp gal (70 l) of methanol- water (MW 50), which injected into the Jumo 213E engine according to the altitude at which the fighter was flying, boosted output mightily. Perhaps this was the clue as to why the Ta 152H-1 was never really put through its paces in the UK - we had no GM 1 or MW 50 at Farnborough! Nevertheless, lack of nitrous oxide and methanol-water notwithstanding, my adrenalin began to flow that summer morning as I eased myself into the cockpit of Ta 152H-1 Werk-Nr 150168 and peered along that immense nose which stretched out so far ahead of the windscreen - the only aircraft I was ever to fly offering a comparable stretch of nose was the Blackburn Firebrand. The German fighter was, of course, equipped with a oressured cabin and since I had done quite a bit of flying in the pressurised Spitfire XIX on clean air and turbulence investigation, the opportunity given by the flight to Brize Norton to make a comparison between the German and British fighters was irresistable.

The take-off of the Ta 152H-1 was shorter than that of the Spitfire XIX and the climb was steeper albeit somewhat slower than that of the British fighter, but once the 30,000 ft (9 145 m) mark had slipped oast the altimeter, the Tank fighter gave me the impression of holding its rate of climb better than its British counterpart. In so far as manouvrabbility was concerned, the story was very much the same; the Spitfire was certainly the better of the two below 30,000 ft (9 145 m), there being little to choose between British and German fighters between that altitude and 35,000 ft (10 760m), but above the latter altitude the Ta 152H-1 enjoyed a decided edge. I gave the German fighter its head on the way to Brize Norton and did a full throttle run at 35,000 ft (10 670 m), which, by my rough reckoning, worked out at around 425 mph (684 km/h), or about 35 mph (56 km/h) less than the SpitfireXIX was capable of, but, of course, the availability of GM 1 boost would have more than redressed the balance and the Ta 152H-1 was certainly the superior aeroplane on the score of range. In essence, however, these two potential opponents were remarkably close from many aspects, illustrating how closely parallel Britain and Germany were running in piston-engined fighter technology.

On the descent from altitude to Brize Norton, I had time to make quick checks on the stability and control of the German fighter. I found a noticeable reduction in roll rate and an increase in the stick force per g by comparison with its BMW 801-powered predecessors, some of the more attractive qualities of the original fighter having been sacrificed in order to acheive the best possible performance at extreme altitudes. I therefore expectede the stability to be improved over that of the Fw 190, as indeed it was, but it was not so good that a protracted flight at 45,000 ft (13 715 m) would not have been a fatiguing experience, a fact evidently recognised by the provision of an autopilot.

.....

In my view, the Ta 152H-1 was every bit as good as any of its Allied piston-engined counterparts and, from some aspects, better than most. It was unfortunate for the Jagdflieger but undoubtedly fortunate for the Allies that it arrived on the scene too late to play any serious role in the air war."

http://www.amazon.com/Wings-Luftwaffe-Flying-Captured-Aircraft/dp/1902109155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412617448&sr=8-1&keywords=wings+of+the+luftwaffe

A great book if you haven't read it.  Most of Eric Brown's books are very good, even if he does occasionally give an impression (to me at least) of being slightly biased towards UK warbirds. 

[Ack-Ack]

ino early war american dive bombers or torpedo bombers

SBD Dauntles is a US early war dive bomber.

no raf early and mid war carrier aircraft

Of course the RAF doesn't have any early/mid-war carrier aircraft, but the Fleet Arm did.  The Sea Hurricane Mk I could be considered an early war carrier plane, same with the Seafire Mk II, at the least both are very solidly mid-war carrier aircraft.

.....no early-mid war p-51..the p-51A

P-51B is most definitely a mid-war fighter.  I think you probably meant to say we don't have any Allison powered Mustangs.

Any claims of bias towards one side in the plane set has absolutely no foundation at all and is always in the mind of the beholder claiming bias.

ack-ack

[MiloMorai]

The Sea Gladiator would be an early war British a/c.

In the Mediterranean Theatre during 1940–41, Gladiators saw combat with four Allied air forces: the RAF, Royal Australian Air Force, South African Air Force and Ellinikí Vasilikí Aeroporía (Royal Greek Air Force) squadrons.

[save]

In Finnish winter war Swedens airforce  supplied a squadron of Gladiators with crew and all

[Karnak]

Ack-Ack,

Can't really agree about the P-51B.  December of 1943 is barely mid war from an American perspective, let alone a European perspective.  Less than two years to go in a six year war.

[lyric1]

SBD Dauntles is a US early war dive bomber.

1943 for the start of production of the -5.

Is that still early war in AHII?