OK...so who flies the LA-7?

[2bighorn]

At high speed yes. We're not discussing performance at high speed. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

Low speed, sustained turn radius, low alt climb... Subtle, but is there. This (plus what isn't on charts) translates into handling differences which highly skilled guys (Batfink, DmonSlyr and others) would notice.

Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

Not at all, it's just that your chart reading capabilities are of rather low resolution. Probably of the same as your subjective feel for LA5 and LA7.

[GScholz]

Except that two "highly skilled guys" had opposite opinions on which aircraft was better low and slow. This "feeling" is subjective and cannot be quantified in any way. Whether or not it is an advantage in combat is also unquantifiable and highly speculative. "Highly skilled" or not, they're not Jedi...

[Crash Orange]

OMG, you're arguing that "real life" is somehow not a collection of numbers?

Don't be silly. The complexities and numbers in real life are many orders of magnitude greater, and many orders of magnitude finer than any computer model we have the technology to create, much less a commercially viable game. It's like the difference between a synthesizer trying to reproduce the sound of a Stradivarius vs. the real item, but a hundred times more complex.

[DmonSlyr]

You just don't get it do ya Scottie

Oh, and yeah 20 mph makes a big difference in a slow fight. It comes down to which plane can flip over more quickly and still retain E better causing the other to flutter out in the stall. The La7 can gain this advantage, which can allow it to be better in a slow fight. However, the la5 may be able to roll inside of it at slower speeds. While the planses may be considered "close" on paper, one plane is better adept to handling planes in the MA, and that is the LA7. You cant agrue that either. The overall 20-40 mph speed difference makes a hell of a difference in the MA.

Obviously you didn't read all of what I wrote here considering the differences in the LAs at slow turn fighting speeds. I said the la5 could roll in inside of it at slower rolling speeds. But the la7 could use its advantage to out climb or out E the la5.

The fact that you don't think 20 MPH could make a big difference in a turn fight probably means you dont have enough experience  flying and dueling or you probably  just aren't that good.

[mechanic]

Except that two "highly skilled guys" had opposite opinions on which aircraft was better low and slow. This "feeling" is subjective and cannot be quantified in any way. Whether or not it is an advantage in combat is also unquantifiable and highly speculative. "Highly skilled" or not, they're not Jedi...

Pipz said the La5FN is more stable.

I said the La7 is more manoeuvrable.

We said the same thing.

[GScholz]

One day you'll have to take me to the DA and prove it.

[pipz]

Lets keep this goin! Huzzah!   

[mechanic]

One day you'll have to take me to the DA and prove it.

I think that would be good fun

[palef]

My wing fell off.

[Tilt]

the LA7 with further refinements which included a thinner wing,

The wing profile did not change from the Lagg thru to the La7.

The main spa changed from wood to metal during the La5F -La5FN transition. The actual timing was dependant upon the two factory stocks of wings. So one factory used up all its wooden spa's prior to switching to the FN one didn't and so some early FN's had wooden spa's (which were heavier).

FYI the only reason FN production went on until Oct 44 was due to the stock of FN wings.
The rod linkage control to aelerons and elevator was the same for both. Control surfaces also the same construction. The La7 rudder tip was changed by a small amount.
The wing root to fuselage profile was changed several times from lagg thru to la7.

Re "feel", given HTC have put some extra drag down the under side of the La5FN fuselage then I can believe that stability changes under some AoA. I would struggle to believe that the departure characturistics are so different............I can sort of feel that the recovery characturistic  might be marginally quicker on the la5FN (AH).

So if we do have experten hovering continually in between AH coaded departure and recovery then they may detect something. Historically these planes were never meant to be flown in combat this way.

I am no experten    (definately the scientist and not the artist) I have flown both a fair amount.

I am a poor shot so do not commit for the quick kill but instead (try to) drain my opponents E to give me the eventual time I need on his/her 6. The la5FN does  allow me to scrub e once I decide to commit to the saddle i.e it is easier (for me) to control the e state to get the best line when slow in an La5FN.

I don't think there is any diference in roll between them.

and I repeat if the la7 has full tanks and the la5FN has a quarter tank then the rules all change again IMO

[pipz]

Tilt in one of my books they said they changed the center section of the wing and modified the controles for less stick force. <shrugs>

In reference to the LA7. Squadron book La5/7 fighters. page 37.

"additionally , refinements to the elevators resulted in reduced control stick forces."

[GScholz]

The center section of the wing (the part that is inside/underneath the fuselage) was modified to incorporate the engine intake and oil cooler. The wing profile, size or shape was not changed beyond the wing root intakes and the fillet.

[Slade]

La7.  Its good to have a plane for new pilots.  Great plane for them to learn on.

...or for the score obsessed too.

 

[Tilt]

Pipz you are correct it does say that on page 37.

I would point you to two other publications being

Lavochkin LA7 by Milos Vestsik ISBN 80-902238-7-7

And

Lavochkin La5 by Milos Vestsik ISBN 80-86524-10-8

Vestsik goes into detail much more than any of Yefim Gordon's or Hans -Heiri Staplers works ( which in the main repeat each other )
Vestsik is able to show diagrams and sketches not published elsewhere ( probably due to the fact he had access to one of the only two remaining La7's and a bunch of Czech records for both the La7 and La5FN.

He describes the control elements in some detail in each book. And in each book the La5fn and La 7 are the same.

There are differences in the elevators. The La5FN has 2 kg bob weights in port and starboard. The La7 has a 2.8kg bob weight in port and 2kg in starboard. The La5FN had  travel of +27'30" & -16.30"'. The La7 had travel of +30' & -15'.

The trim tabs changed from Ply to Metal .

The big change in control stick forces (Elevator) came during the La5F to La5FN transition where the " gearing was changed substantially as was the travel (La5F had only +/- 16'30")

[palef]

Tilt in one of my books they said they changed the center section of the wing and modified the controles for less stick force. <shrugs>

That explains my wing falling off. I am outraged.