Lets talk Hurricanes.

[GScholz]

... and that is one shining example of how AHII must have got it wrong somehow.

Yeah, HiTech and Pyro must be idiots! To say nothing of the Luftwaffe who continued to use the 110 in the day-fighter role well into 1942. What do they know, right?

[mike8318]

Too bad they never put a fuel injected engine in the Hurri.

[Zimme83]

The 110 suffered a lot during bob, it was faster than a hurricane but the combat record was poor against hurris and spits. Its longer range made it the only option for bomber escort beyond 109 range and as a bnz fighter they had some success. But LW losses of the 110 was far higher than the replacement rate. Poor agility and acceleration was the main flaws of the 110 against RAF fighters.

[Oldman731]

The 110C didn't have 109 escorts when flying as fighters. Only when they were operating as fighter bombers.

I am sure I have read otherwise.

BoB engagements may not have been representative of all 110 engagements, but clearly the 110s did not do well as fighters in that campaign.  In fact, I don't think I've ever read anything - anything - that says otherwise.

- oldman ("well, hey, Oldman, you just aren't much of a reader now, are you?")

[GScholz]

If you're asking for book recommendations you could start with this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Hurricane-Bf-110-1940-Duel/dp/1846039452



Not very in-depth on statistics, but excellent in commentary from pilots of both aircraft.

[EagleDNY]

In 1990 the Air & Space Museum hosted a couple of pilots that had flown Hurricanes in the BoB as part of their 50th anniversary remembrance - I was fortunate enough to be able to go to their discussion.  I wish I could remember their names right now (I'll have to go dig up the program I brought back from the event - they were kind enough to sign it for us).  I remember quite clearly they were asked if they thought their Hurricanes were being outclassed by the 109s they had come up against, as the 109s were faster, had a 20mm cannon etc.   Pretty much the same arguments that I am seeing in this thread.

Their answer was a clear and unequivocal no.   Their reason was that while the 109 had a higher top speed and could dive away from them if he got in trouble, if he did that then he was abandoning the bombers he was escorting and was effectively neutralized.   Most of their engagements were over in a matter of minutes and began with them diving in on a group of German bombers and escorts that were lumbering along at the cruising speed of the bombers.  The controllers gave them altitude and position data and they always did their best to make sure they came in higher than the enemy so the battle would begin with them coming screaming through the enemy formation because they would almost certainly be outnumbered. 

Couple other things I remember -
1.  One of the guys had a 109 kill to his credit, along with a couple of bombers (Heinkels I think) -- but he quite clearly let us know that he was after bombers as his top priority.   Every night they would listen to the reports of civilian casualties from bombings on the radio, and that got them fired up to stop the bombers.  His 109 kill came because his squadron leader would sometimes divide them into 2 sections and have one section dive in first on the bombers and then the other section would dive in on the escorts diving in on the first section and clear their tails.
2.  If they did get intercepted by the escorts and a furball started, they could always tell when the 109s got low on fuel because they would suddenly break away and start running back towards the channel.  That was fine with him since it meant that there were some bombers behind him someplace that no longer had fighter protection. 

This thread got me remembering that perhaps the biggest advantage the Hurricane had was the huge cojones on the men that flew her. 

[GScholz]

"Outclassed" is too strong... "At a disadvantage" is a better description of the Hurri in 1940-41, and not a disadvantage that couldn't be balanced out by tactical advantages and skill.

Too bad they never put a fuel injected engine in the Hurri.

What other allied fighter had fuel injection?

[mike8318]

"One weakness of the engine was that it cut out under negative g force during a steep dive. Me-109’s had fuel-injected engines and were not affected by this but Spitfires and Hurricanes were as they used the carburated Merlin engines. This problem was partially solved in 1941 by “Miss Shilling’s Orifice” – a diaphragm fitted across the float chambers designed by Miss Tilly Shilling."

I was under the impression that the early Spitfires and all Hurricanes would loose power in a negative G situation was because of the carburated  engines. So I always wondered why they didnt put the fuel injected Merlin in the Hurricane.

[GScholz]

Later Merlin engines were also carburetted, but only the early SU carburetors had the negative-G cutout problem. Google "Tilly orifice" for a cute little story on how it was fixed in the early birds.

[Tilt]

Command & Control, better radar and the fact that by June 1940 Britain was making more fighter aircraft per month than Germany was and had pilots ( the greatest shortage) coming in from overseas.

Sometimes we need an icon.... The Spit became one.... It did what was needed at the time..... It was not "better" in every respect.

The Hurri was not glamorous enough.

[Rich46yo]

Was the 12 .30 gun bird available for the BOB ? It was like the early llB right?

[GScholz]

The first 12 gun Mk. II S2 were deployed in October 1940, so they were available for some time during the last month of the battle.

[Rich46yo]

I would think the legendary toughness of the airframe with the addition of 12 .30's made this model Hurri an impressive aircraft. I'd hate to be in a top gun of a 111 with one bearing down on me. Ive yet to fly it in game, dang I have no time to play, but think I will maybe against a naval foe.

[GScholz]

Eight guns are terrifying enough, let alone 12 guns.

[Vraciu]

LOL Love it Olds. I have POC on DVD.

The book is far superior.