Pilots blackout too fast

[Zimme83]

I strongly believe that the current modeling of Grey- and Blackouts is a little bit incorrect. Even a novice can handle up to 6G w/o too much problem. I have tested around 6G in a few seconds and did not even have a greyout and i don't concider myself as ûber in any way. I would be more accurate with greyout starting at 6 G and blackout at 7G. The current setup have a pretty big impact on gameplay and some planes suffer really hard from it, P-40 for example. In WW2 the P-40 could outturn both the A6M and the Ki-43 at high speeds but in AH Blackout will occur before any of the planes had reach their limit in turn performance. This means that the P-40 looses its biggest and prob only advantage in high speed maneuverability. Instead of the 8+G that seemed to be possible for the P-40 in WW2 we are limited to 6- G in AH.

[bozon]

Have you pulled 6G for a few seconds? Planes without a G-suit are usually limited to 5G in aerobatics for pilot safety reasons.
Remember that in the game you can pull into blackout while sipping coffee from a cup in your left hand. The blackout model is there to prevent players from doing things that will make a real pilot suffer badly. It is not perfect.

What we don't have is a long red out when pulling too much negative G. The pilots were bleeding from their eyes and could barely see.

[Zimme83]

It will not hurt to allow one more G before blackout. A fighter pilot should be able to take 7G.

Havent heard of that limitation in my part of the world atleast. Had no g-suit. U have to work with your leg and stomach in order to prevent blackout but it was not that hard, had expected itto be harder.

[bozon]

It will not hurt to allow one more G before blackout. A fighter pilot should be able to take 7G.

Why stop there? how about 8G?

The physiological effects depend on many things and vary from person to person and from time to time on the same person. Planes of that era typically did not exceed 6G. They most certainly exceeded it on occasions with various results varying from nothing, through pilot blacking out, to bent wings. I think that the main reason for this limitation is to prevent gamey behaviour like repeated yanking on the stick to induce internet lag effects - the "dont move your controls so fast" lock is there for the same reason.

[Zimme83]

Some result from  testing during the war: ( from the stuka wiki page)

Extensive tests were carried out by the Junkers works at their Dessau plant. It was discovered that the highest load a pilot could endure was 8.5 g for three seconds, when the aircraft was pushed to its limit by the centrifugal forces. At less than 4 g, no visual problems or loss of consciousness were experienced.[29]Above 6 g, 50% of pilots suffered visual problems, or "grey" out. With 40%, vision vanished altogether from 7.5 g upwards and black-out sometimes occurred.[30]Despite this blindness, the pilot could maintain consciousness and was capable of "bodily reactions". However, after more than three seconds, half the subjects passed out. The pilot would regain consciousness two or three seconds after the centrifugal forces had dropped below 3 g and had lasted no longer than three seconds. In a crouched position, pilots could withstand 7.5 g and were able to remain functional for a short duration. In this position, Junkers concluded that ⅔ of pilots could withstand 8 g and perhaps 9 g for three to five seconds without vision defects which, under war conditions, was acceptable.[31]During tests with the Ju 87 A-2, new technologies were tried out to reduce the effects of g forces. The pressurised cabin was of great importance during this research. Testing revealed that at high altitude, even 2 g could cause death in an unpressurised cabin and without appropriate clothing

So that we should face a blackout as soon as we hit 6G seems not too accurate. Of course some planes did not tolerate much , ore than that but some planes did and as in the case i mentioned i my first post are some plane severly hampered because of this when their high speed turn ability is useless due to the blackout of the pilot.

[The Fugitive]

How are your graphics set? I know that I can pull into a black out and gradually get my screen down to a "hole" about the size of a quarter and can still fly. If your settings are set lower due to a weak computer I know the "gradually" part is pretty rough and not as smooth as a computer that can pump out the frames.

[Zimme83]

And on thesubject of G-suits: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-suit
They where used by both RAF and USAAF during tha later half of the war. And here is an interessting conclussion:

Although uncomfortable and distracting to use, later research showed that military fighter pilots who wore g-suits survived and defeated their opponents in greater numbers than those who didn't

[FLS]

What would be different if everybody could pull 7 gs instead of 6? It's not like everyone else would still be pulling 6. Everyone would have a smaller radius, better rate, and higher drag at corner speed.

The amount of G you can sustain varies in individuals as well as between individuals. You can't fairly model that. The game has a fixed limit which is the same for everybody.

You might argue that seating position should affect G tolerance. 

[Wiley]

What would be different if everybody could pull 7 gs instead of 6? It's not like everyone else would still be pulling 6. Everyone would have a smaller radius, better rate, and higher drag at corner speed.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but it would add to the advantage between planes that handle well at high speed versus planes that don't.  In the OP's example between the Zero and the P40, if the P40 could pull 7 G's instead of 6 at speed, and the Zero's limited turning ability due to high speed was only letting it pull say 3 G's (number from backside for comparison only) the P40 would have significantly more advantage, right?

I don't think I'm a fan of the suggestion.  In game we already can withstand G loads over time with no ill effects that would pretty much liquify a human being.  I don't think making that more prevalent would be a good step toward realism.

Wiley.

[FLS]

The Zero is more roll limited by speed than G limited.  The advantage to the P-40 at high speed is changing the lift vector faster.

[danny76]

What would be different if everybody could pull 7 gs instead of 6? It's not like everyone else would still be pulling 6. Everyone would have a smaller radius, better rate, and higher drag at corner speed.

The amount of G you can sustain varies in individuals as well as between individuals. You can't fairly model that. The game has a fixed limit which is the same for everybody.

You might argue that seating position should affect G tolerance. 

I was under the impression that 109's for example had a more reclined seating position specifically to cope with g's better

[morfiend]

I was under the impression that 109's for example had a more reclined seating position specifically to cope with g's better

  That would be the 190's not the 109's!   Look at the 2 cockpits,the 190's have their rudder pedals raised somewhat to allow for a more reclined seating position,which was supposed to help slow blood pooling into the legs!


   

 PS: the Germans were designing a cockpit where the pilot laid prone,it was to be used in the JU jet powered divebomber. How far they got on the design I'm not sure of but they tested the prone position and found it helped a great deal on pull outs.

[danny76]

  That would be the 190's not the 109's!   Look at the 2 cockpits,the 190's have their rudder pedals raised somewhat to allow for a more reclined seating position,which was supposed to help slow blood pooling into the legs!


   

 PS: the Germans were designing a cockpit where the pilot laid prone,it was to be used in the JU jet powered divebomber. How far they got on the design I'm not sure of but they tested the prone position and found it helped a great deal on pull outs.

The Brits also had a prone Gloster Meteor for high G testing

[morfiend]

The Brits also had a prone Gloster Meteor for high G testing

  Cool stuff,you happen to have a link that I can read about this?     It's the first I've heard of this!



     

[danny76]

  Cool stuff,you happen to have a link that I can read about this?     It's the first I've heard of this!



     

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/gloster-meteor-f8-prone-position/