P-38J vs P38L Flight Performance in AH

[Randy1]

In another thread, I had posted that the P-38J flew lighter than the P-38L with the same load-out.  I remember an older thread where this came up as well.  A few others have agreed the J flies better than the L in low speed handling.  I added the J got the nose around quicker as if the elevator was more responsive than the L.  Another had noted the J handled near stall maneuvers better than the L model.  Anyway, a new thread seemed to be in order.

AH shows the weight and horsepower to be the same.  Their curves and independent performance testing supports that.  The dimensions and airfoils are the same.

I throw out for discussion a reason for the difference in flight characteristics between the J and L models.

I had suggest the L model is modeled tail heavy by a mathematical misplaced CG in the model.  I had stated in the other post I wondered if it were misplaced mathematical weight in the model.  I just don't see how this could be true the more I think about it.  WAGing I would think the model coding for the L would be a cut and paste of the J.

Then it came to me that the dive flap model on the L would be the only change vs the J outside the roll rate model. 

Is it possible the dive flap on the L is modeled in the down position all of the time, in error?  This might create a nose up problem like it was modeled tail heavy at slow speeds.  Add to that the countless thread space used up noting no notable drag when the flap is deployed and you start to wonder if an o and 1 are in the wrong place and the flap is always down.

[FLS]

If the dive flap were always down you wouldn't see the difference between up and down that you see now. Any handling difference between the J and L should be measurable, like the difference in roll rate.

[Ack-Ack]

Slow speed handling of both the P-38J and the P-38L are the same, the J isn't better in game than the L at slow speeds.

ack-ack

[bozon]

The J has nicer skins. Everyone knows that a cooler plane handles better... at leat in the player's mind.

[Delirium]

You'll notice the older P38 sticks in AH tend to fly the J or G more than the L. Much like it was historically, the hydraulic boosted ailerons tend to hinder more than help off those that aren't accustomed to it. That said, I still feel the snaproll is different between the G/J and the L.

[Randy1]

You'll notice the older P38 sticks in AH tend to fly the J or G more than the L. Much like it was historically, the hydraulic boosted ailerons tend to hinder more than help off those that aren't accustomed to it. That said, I still feel the snaproll is different between the G/J and the L.

After spending the previous tour before the last just about entirely in the L, I was surprised this last tour how much easier it was to get kills in the J model.  Several times I have went back to the L thinking it should be a better fighter because of the boosted aileron simulation but the sluggish response of the L in certain situations is small yet unmistakeable. 

Although you can't put a lot of stock in a comparison between kills in a P-38LvsP-38J  kills statistics, the J always wins engagements with the L by a wide margin.  Several factors make this number very questionable so I don't hang my hat on the statistics.

How the dive flap is modeled is my best guess.  Alas, I have no proof.  If others say there is no difference I want and can not argue with them since the difference is unmeasurable at this time.

[Triton28]

Having never flown the L very much in the fighter role before, I did just that this tour.  Overall if you can fly the other two, you can fly the L the same, but it's got it's quirks which always seem to manifest in a slower speed fight.  Wing stalls seem to be much more common in the L.  It's not night and day, but the L feels less stable to me in many of the situations I often put more poor P-38 in.     

[Randy1]

Having never flown the L very much in the fighter role before, I did just that this tour.  Overall if you can fly the other two, you can fly the L the same, but it's got it's quirks which always seem to manifest in a slower speed fight.  Wing stalls seem to be much more common in the L.  It's not night and day, but the L feels less stable to me in many of the situations I often put more poor P-38 in.     

Many many moons ago I used the J in Fighter mode and the L in Attack mode.  I don't remember any difference then but like you, after a long run in the L, the J difference became noticeable. 

The only change in the L that might account for the difference would be the modeling of the dive flap.  That difference would be small.  I wonder too if there is some sort of dive flap subroutine that is inserted in every dive flap model and that might have an error in all dive flap planes.  It could be something like the flap model works but the added drag stays in the model no matter if on or off.

I ran several test today at slow and high speed hoping to discover a small amount of lift or loss of lift when the dive flap is dropped.  If I saw a change then that is one thing but because I didn't see a change , it did not tell me anything since a small change may not have been detectable by my test do to inaccuracy.

[katanaso]

I don't think it's the dive flap.  I think it's the effect from the boosted ailerons that you're noticing, and the same stick movements that you can do in a J will sometimes cause the L to stall.  

That added roll rate, while really nice when at higher speeds, causes havoc if you're not used to it when maneuvering at lower speeds.  The J feels smooth, whereas the L does not.

However, if you take some of the dedicated L fliers, they can move it around just as smoothly as some of the J fliers.  But put some of them into a J, and they have similiar problems, albeit not as pronounced as moving from a J to a L.

A chart of the roll rates (something on the Internet - can't verify the veracity):



Another chart, seemingly of a later model J.  At 100mph, the boosted ailerons make it 2 seconds faster in roll rate to 90 degrees than without the boost turned on:

[Ack-Ack]

I don't think it's the dive flap.  I think it's the effect from the boosted ailerons that you're noticing, and the same stick movements that you can do in a J will sometimes cause the L to stall.  

What stick movements that you can do in the J that would cause you to stall in the L model?  The only "issue" I've had in flying the L (at high speeds) is that it takes less stick force to roll the L, and being used to the J model, I tend to use too much force causing to me sometimes "over roll" in the L.  Other than that, any other maneuver hasn't caused me to stall like some have mentioned happens to them.  The biggest difference in the "feel" between both planes is that the L feels like it's flying on rails compared to the J.

ack-ack

[DmonSlyr]

Well the p38s aren't my #1 ride, but I do enjoy figting in them often. The P38J just out performs the L in a turn circumstance.  It is the better dog fighter and to me has a better chance in  1v1 style fight than the P38L. IMO the p38J is the dog fighter plane and L is the attack plane.

I don't know the specifics or specifications of each model. But it is quite obvious to me in the time I've been playing that the J, while slower, is the better dog fighter.

[katanaso]

What stick movements that you can do in the J that would cause you to stall in the L model?  The only "issue" I've had in flying the L (at high speeds) is that it takes less stick force to roll the L, and being used to the J model, I tend to use too much force causing to me sometimes "over roll" in the L.  Other than that, any other maneuver hasn't caused me to stall like some have mentioned happens to them.  The biggest difference in the "feel" between both planes is that the L feels like it's flying on rails compared to the J.

ack-ack

I meant to phrase it in the sense of my inputs, not the actual stick movements, make it stall, like you just stated.  I make it stall, since I apply too much force, as I'm used to flying the J. 

[Ack-Ack]

The P38J just out performs the L in a turn circumstance.

The P-38J doesn't "out perfrom the L in turn circumstance".  At high speeds the L has the edge and at medium to low speeds, it's a wash between the two.  The reason why there is a perception that the J is be better "dog fighter" has been due to how both planes are used by players.  Because of the way the L model is used by the majority of the players, it has the reputation of being more a dump truck than a fighter like the J model.  Of the three P-38s we have in game, the L model is the best and definitive version of the Lightning.

ack-ack

[GScholz]

Rolling faster can cause a stall if you're already close to stalling, as you would be in a knife fight. The angle of attack of the descending wing increases the faster the roll. If the AoA is increased enough the descending wing will stall resulting in a snap roll leaving you inverted or spinning. If you're close to stalling already it doesn't take much to stall that wing; a nervous jerk is enough.

[colmbo]

Rolling faster can cause a stall if you're already close to stalling, as you would be in a knife fight. The angle of attack of the descending wing increases the faster the roll. If the AoA is increased enough the descending wing will stall resulting in a snap roll leaving you inverted or spinning. If you're close to stalling already it doesn't take much to stall that wing; a nervous jerk is enough.

In real life that is true.  Is it modeled in the game in that manner?