Cross Control Stall Tutorial

[Traveler]

That sounds more like a Chandelle or an Immelmann, depending on what is meant by vertical.   A properly performed Chandelle doesn't include a stall, nor does an Immelmann.  That still leaves the question of why is the word "stall" is included in the description.  

I think FLS posted the best answer.

A stall turn is a vertical climb with a 180 reversal as you run out of airspeed.

A hammerhead turn is a stall turn with defined limits for aerobatic competition.

I’ve seen hammerhead performed and when my Dad attempted to teach me some aerobatics back in the day, he explained that the hammerhead was not a stall maneuver but used the rudder just before it lost authority and gravity  to swing the nose around.
His aerobatic training was what he learned in the Army Air Core, he flew P47’s and later P51’s in WWII.

He never taught me a stall turn in the vertical,  He did teach me to recover from attempted hammerheads and Immelmanns  where I just got to slow and lost it, either going over the top or inverted flat spins.   My Dad had access to a friends AT6 and our 1946 J3.

I had learned to almost accomplish the hammerhead but it was a full stall with gravity and a good CG bringing the nose around and down, referring my direction of flight.

[Mar]

Lift is AOA and speed.

That was my point. There is a minimum speed for a givin plane where you can't mauntain level flight, and then there is the accelerated stall. The difference is, in an accelerated stall one wing is making more lift than the other causing the plan to "snap-roll". Below minimum speed, you just fall like a rock.

Lift requires speed, without lift you stall. Without speed there is no such thing as AoA.

So tell me, why does speed have nothing to do with it?

[Mar]

That sounds like a Chandelle or perhaps an Immelmann, depending the definition of vertical.  Performed properly, neither includes a stall.  So, the question remains as to why the word "stall" is included.  Also, where did the term "stall turn" originate?  As one of Traveler's posted YouTube videos demonstrates, a series of events, turn-stall-spin has ruined the day of many a pilot in the traffic pattern.  It's certainly not a maneuver a well trained, competent pilot would depend on in air combat.  

You know what a Chandelle is, you know what an Immelmann is, and so you know neither of them have anything to do with what you quoted.

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The hamme head is just as described in Traveler's post above: using rudder to swing around just before speed gets so low that the rudder loses control authority. In AH this is easiest to do with planes that have low torque, but high torque planes such as the 109 are better suited to the move described by the OP.

[Traveler]

That was my point. There is a minimum speed for a givin plane where you can't mauntain level flight, and then there is the accelerated stall. The difference is, in an accelerated stall one wing is making more lift than the other causing the plan to "snap-roll". Below minimum speed, you just fall like a rock.

Lift requires speed, without lift you stall. Without speed there is no such thing as AoA.

So tell me, why does speed have nothing to do with it?

No no no, the accelerated stall demonstrates that airspeed has nothing to do with a stall.  AOA , read about relative wind, Cord Line.  Look at the videos that I've posted.

[Puma44]

You know what a Chandelle is, you know what an Immelmann is, and so you know neither of them have anything to do with what you quoted.

You are correct.  I know what they are.  The provided explanation of a stall turn sounds somewhat similar to the two maneuvers, depending on the definition.  So, the question still remains.  What exactly is a stall turn? 

[Mar]

No no no, the accelerated stall demonstrates that airspeed has nothing to do with a stall.  AOA , read about relative wind, Cord Line.  Look at the videos that I've posted.

What specific part of my post are you disagreeing with?

You are correct.  I know what they are.  The provided explanation of a stall turn sounds somewhat similar to the two maneuvers, depending on the definition.  So, the question still remains.  What exactly is a stall turn? 

I am not personally familiar with the term, but it should be as FLS said. A verticals climb until you run out of speed and fall. As long as you have a forward center of gravity, the nose with fall first, turning you around. If your CoG is aft, it's usually suicide.

That is, unless FLS meant there should be some control input before you lose control authority.

[Puma44]

What specific part of my post are you disagreeing with?

I am not personally familiar with the term, but it should be as FLS said. A verticals climb until you run out of speed and fall. As long as you have a forward center of gravity, the nose with fall first, turning you around. If your CoG is aft, it's usually suicide.

That is, unless FLS meant there should be some control input before you lose control authority.

Depending on if he describes a climbing turn versus a pure vertical pitch up, it could be either a chandelle or an Immelmann.  There is still no stall involved. 

[Mar]

Ok then, what is it called when you don't have enough speed to fly?

[Skyyr]

Ok then, what is it called when you don't have enough speed to fly?

There's no such thing as "not having enough speed to fly." You either have enough lift or you don't. Lift may ultimately come from airspeed, but airspeed alone does not determine whether you fly or not.

[BaldEagl]

Ok then, what is it called when you don't have enough speed to fly?

Certain death.   

[FLS]

Depending on if he describes a climbing turn versus a pure vertical pitch up, it could be either a chandelle or an Immelmann.  There is still no stall involved. 

For a hammerhead you go straight up, rotate, go straight down.

An Immelman is a half loop flown with continuous lift.

A chandelle is a climbing turn with continuous lift.

A wingover occurs if you yaw too soon in a stall turn.

A tailslide occurs if you yaw too late in a stall turn.

Basically, a stall turn is a turn without continuous lift from the wings.

[FLS]

That was my point. There is a minimum speed for a givin plane where you can't mauntain level flight, and then there is the accelerated stall. The difference is, in an accelerated stall one wing is making more lift than the other causing the plan to "snap-roll". Below minimum speed, you just fall like a rock.

Lift requires speed, without lift you stall. Without speed there is no such thing as AoA.

So tell me, why does speed have nothing to do with it?

Because you assume a 1g load condition.  At a 0g load factor you won't stall at 2 MPH.  You can stall at any speed but you can only stall at the critical AOA.

[RufusLeaking]

...

in an accelerated stall one wing is making more lift than the other causing the plan to "snap-roll". 

...

One wing dropping before the other has nothing to do with whether or not the stall is accelerated.

Torque is probably the biggest factor for which wing drops. I tried several times with an instructor to get a Cessna 152 to roll against torque when entering a spin (which requires a stall,) and could not.

An accelerated stall is one in which the plane is pulling G's, which increases the force pulling against lift. To recover from the approach to an accelerated stall, one simply lessens the turn by not pulling so hard on the stick.



Please pardon me for being pretentious. It is a compulsion to show off as much as an obsession with using the correct terms and concepts.

Because you assume a 1g load condition.  At a 0g load factor you won't stall at 2 MPH.  You can stall at any speed but you can only stall at the critical AOA.

Good explanation.

Of course, at zero G, you would only momentarily be at 2 mph as you describe a parabolic arc towards Earth.

Basically, a stall turn is a turn without continuous lift from the wings.

I have never heard the term, "stall turn."

I was taught that stall plus yaw resulted in a spin. I guess rudder is still affective in a stall condition. So, one could direct the nose with the rudder, but it would be on the edge of entering a spin.

[NatCigg]

Thanks for the Videos guys!  I think my move is a slipping spin. TMI for me to handle.  The only thing I know is I was scared watching those videos  and that video FLS posted...that guy is simply nuts! 

The OPs video did seem like the guy would be a nice target for a zooming opponent.  nevertheless once those guns make it around watch out!

 
 

P.S. Thanks HiTech for giving us a game where we can play around with these ridiculous flying moves. 

[Traveler]

What specific part of my post are you disagreeing with?

I am not personally familiar with the term, but it should be as FLS said. A verticals climb until you run out of speed and fall. As long as you have a forward center of gravity, the nose with fall first, turning you around. If your CoG is aft, it's usually suicide.

That is, unless FLS meant there should be some control input before you lose control authority.

you can not equate speed with stall, speed has nothing to do with a stall, it's all AOA, read up on "relative wind" and "Cord line", as long as you persists in saying "speed" you are wrong.   Excessive AOA is the only thing that stalls a wing.  FAA is about to mandate AOA devices in the General Aviation cockpit, they have been mandatory in the airline cockpit for about a decade now.   The device measures Angle of Attack, and has no input for airspeed, get it.