Author Topic: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?  (Read 3275 times)

Offline jimson

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7202
      • The Axis vs Allies Arena
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2015, 04:28:36 PM »
Honestly, I hope MA never gets AI since historical immersion isn't the thing there.

Hopefully, they will only be allowed in the staffed arenas.

I have big plans for them in the playground and also some in the AvA arena.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2015, 04:29:04 PM »
Make the AvA a massively AI ongoing war, two sided arena 24x7, that you drop in and join either side with no waiting to up and shoot things. Leave the MA alone because the unique difference between this game and any other, is 600 live humans in one arena. Once you go down the AI rabbit hole, Aces High just turns into garbage for xbox weenies and everything you hate about fight avoidance against real humans. Unless the goal is to avoid fighting......

I doubt many of you who want HiTech to change Aces High into your gamey utopia ever remember the population of this forum represents less than 2% of the paying subscribers who play this game. That is a lot of paying customers to drive away just to get what you want. But, I guess HiTech will find another income source to pay off the new plane he recently bought and his new child's needs for the next 20 years.

Any of you going to take up that burden? Or just keep telling HiTech your way is the only way or he is going to crash and burn?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23931
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2015, 04:41:53 PM »
Leave the MA alone because the unique difference between this game and any other, is 600 live humans in one arena.

600?  :headscratch:
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline jimson

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7202
      • The Axis vs Allies Arena
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2015, 05:34:15 PM »
the population of this forum represents less than 2% of the paying subscribers who play this game.
I seriously doubt those figures, but I wouldn't want to change the LW arena either.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23931
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2015, 05:46:48 PM »
I seriously doubt those figures, but I wouldn't want to change the LW arena either.

Hmm how many individual players do we see partaking on a regular base in discussions like this? I haven't counted them, but I'd be surprised if it's significantly more than, say 100-200, with a very vocal core of mabye a two or three dozen?  :headscratch:
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2015, 06:31:04 PM »
Hmm how many individual players do we see partaking on a regular base in discussions like this? I haven't counted them, but I'd be surprised if it's significantly more than, say 100-200, with a very vocal core of mabye a two or three dozen?  :headscratch:

Look at the bottom of the General Forums page.  This is what I found on today, Tuesday 1/6 at 7 pm EST:  Most Online Today: 76. Most Online Ever: 351 (April 02, 2008, 10:09:15 PM)

I am pretty sure that number represents a fraction of those who actually know about the forums, and post..... just let the servers go down for more than 15 minutes...  :eek:

Bustr was making a valid point, that the percentage of posters is also a fraction, but there is a consistent theme in the air, if you play online long enough, you can draw your own conclusions (nuff said).

Although I don't agree at all about never exploring AI any further. I wonder how many times Orville and Wilbur were told to stay within the lines?

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15718
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2015, 12:02:30 AM »
Is it the challenge that appeals in the human vs human philosophy or is it the fact that to win someone has to lose? Is the size of the smile measured by the number of frowns it causes? Then again, I may be an anomoly. I laugh whether I win or lose a fight. I'm just glad to log on from time to time.

For me, it is that AI is artificial and usually (in all cases where I have played games against bots, including ones with a mix of bots and humans such as Quake and Battlefield 1942) open either to exploiting predictable anomalies or completely screwing you no matter what you do because the bot is better than a human can be (such as in aiming and in perceiving enemies regardless of obstructions).  Here are things that come to mind in no particular order.

A super high-skill bot probably wouldn't be deployed (at least not in numbers) as it would be no fun.  The bots would just kill everyone all the time.  Maybe there would be a spectrum of skill on the bots, but the average would have to be less than the skill of an average human player for the game dynamics and appeal to work.

So, bots with degraded skill would be used.  Then you know that any bot you fight could beat you except that it is not playing to its full ability.  It's like winning against someone who lets you win, or decides he'll fight you but only with a 1000 lb bomb attached, or at 75% throttle setting, or something lame like that.  "Gee, I beat a bot.  Yay for me."

Bots would likely have "tells."  That and the fact that they would be adjusted so not to be as good as the best human pilots means that there would be a class of people (and not an insubstantial number, judging from all the milkrunners in the game) who would prefer to attack bots and run away from any humans they can perceive in the fight.

People would learn combat techniques to exploit the quirks of the bots.  These might be very bad moves against humans.  So, you are learning "wrong" skills.  It's like when I played Battlefield 1942.  You could set it up to have a bunch of bots in it to fill out a map when you didn't have enough players.  You'd go out there, and once you knew the weaknesses of the bots, slaughter them.  But then a human would show up, and your move to take out the bot would be horrible against the human, and you'd quickly die.  So, part of the game became trying to judge if you are going up against a human or bot.  That takes you out of the "suspension of disbelief" and out of the immersion.  Also, I would occasionally fly the horrible aircraft in BF1942.  But they were so bad that I decided not ever to fly them lest I pollute my reactions for Aces High.

Bots are OK for doing things that are boring and that no human wants to do (drive a supply truck, man some acks 24 hours a day, be a target, etc.).  However, bots being your opponent in a contest of skill, where that skill is the heart of the game, is the lesser domain of the single-player offline game.

I sneer in derision at it compared to the greatness that is Aces High, a multiplayer game where every airplane you fight is flown by a human.

That is also why I like multiplayer Quake way better than Quake against bots, BF1942 against humans way better than against a horde of bots, Star Fleet Battles against other humans instead of against AI opponents, poker against a bunch of other humans instead of against my computer, chess vs. a human opponent instead of against a computer, etc.

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2015, 12:35:48 AM »
The day I find out I'm playing against AI rather than other humans is the day my sub ends.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2015, 04:03:00 AM »
The day that you tell HTC how to run their company, maybe it should end.........  geez, no room for any discussion huh? Most of these, "I quit!" statements are over exaggerations of emotional response to something that happened somewhere else in some other lame game. 


Brooke,

It seems to me that you are assuming that you would be dogfighting AI, or chasing drones around.  Compare AI flying cap over strats to CV puffy ack (as I and others have stated before).  I fly to find an air to air battle, and along the way I discover puffy ack shooting at me.  Do I -a) dive into the fleet and try and kill the cruiser or ack guns, or do I -b) change course, report the fleets position and continue to where I think I will find an air battle?  The choice is still mine, so I -a) change course, and for those that see the advantage in dropping in on the fleet, they have that option also.

Quote
I sneer in derision at it compared to the greatness that is Aces High, a multiplayer game where every airplane you fight is flown by a human
How about the Aces High where no planes are in the air?  Check out time zones with 7 players for an entire country and a map with > 50 bases (dare I mention those afk players or those in ground vehicles or manned guns or just simply fighting a third country).


Offline Randy1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4303
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2015, 05:43:46 AM »
. . . What if you are chasing a AI (not knowing) and get shot down by a real person? I would be ticked  :mad:

Or worse, chasing a real and get shot down by an AI.

Good points against fighter AIs.

Offline jimson

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7202
      • The Axis vs Allies Arena
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2015, 09:29:07 AM »
The day I find out I'm playing against AI rather than other humans is the day my sub ends.

I'm so sick of hearing this. Keep them out of the MA and let the CM arenas have them for people to play when there is nothing going on in the MA or when they want historical immersion in non prime time hours.

Problem solved.

Offline Randy1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4303
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2015, 10:53:56 AM »
I'm so sick of hearing this. Keep them out of the MA and let the CM arenas have them for people to play when there is nothing going on in the MA or when they want historical immersion in non prime time hours.

Problem solved.

Keep in mind this is just a discussion on feasibility of AIs.  Nothing more than that.   My OP is not a wish nor a statement of need.

The majority is not in favor of AIs in the MA best I can tell.

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2015, 11:38:50 AM »
How about the majority that are against puffy ack?  :rolleyes:  I bet if that were removed, you would hear whines to no end  :furious

Back to the original post about country balance, is there any better way to protect strats when the numbers are low?  I use the term "protect" loosely, because in the application that was suggested to use AI to fly cap over strats, the odds could be scaled in a way that favored low populated countries, and relaxed to favor the attackers on highly populated country strats.

I do believe that for those that "hate" the idea of flying against any AI, have no valid foot to stand against its use for the above purpose.  Simply stay away from attacking strats, or you could cancel your subscription (both your choice).  :rolleyes:

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15718
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2015, 12:46:35 PM »
It seems to me that you are assuming that you would be dogfighting AI, or chasing drones around. 

If they are just there to look at, there isn't much point.

Quote
How about the Aces High where no planes are in the air?  Check out time zones with 7 players for an entire country and a map with > 50 bases (dare I mention those afk players or those in ground vehicles or manned guns or just simply fighting a third country).

See my above comment on how correctly to solve that.

Offline Chilli

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Could AIs be used to balance County Imbalance?
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2015, 08:23:23 PM »
Okay, I am done..... mostly because I like the folks that seem to disagree with my views, much more than I enjoy getting my point across..........  :salute