Allied test of German MK108 Mine-Geschoss HE/T round: Must see

[-ammo-]

If you haven't already seen this, and likely many have, it is interesting.

I am surprised by the very small amount of damage done by the round <sarcasm>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk

I really wish we could imbed YT videos in this forum....

[Zerstorer]

Heh...neat!

This makes sense of something that came up in a recent conversation.  

I've been flying IL-2 Cliffs of Dover multiplayer recently.  That game models the different ammo types used by both sides, and you can define custom ammo*  loadouts for your plane.  I fly the 109 E-4 mostly and usually load up the wing cannons with a mixture of the 20mm M-Geschoss (HE) and Panzerbrandgranate Phosphor o.Zerl (AP incendiary) rounds....heavily favoring the 20mm M-Geschoss as its generally acknowledged as the most effective.  

The first time I used them I was surprised by the results.  They look very impressive when they hit and certainly do damage, but I expected much more out of them (whole wings coming off from just a few hits, etc).  I mentioned this on the TS server and one of the other pilots told me he read they are modeled to on actual test data.  This video seems to underline the damage potental is modeled fairly well when I compare what I see in the game to the damage from the larger 30mm HE rounds in the test film.

I admit the lack of damage could also be due to my bad aim.  

Thanks for posting!



* No pun intended.  

[mthrockmor]

This answers many questions.

I suppose the next one would be a shot in the fuselage to see what kind of damage it did there.

In-game when hit by the 30mm the plane typically blows up or the tail comes off. Considering the damage to the wing I would expect in real life the wing would not come off but fold upwards like a Navy plane being stored. This of course would cause the catastrophic loss of control cited in the video. Also, in real life I would guess that the tail would not come off though likely a catastrophic fire would result, likely all control surface wires severed. Both of these would be fatal.

Great info. I'll never question the umpf of the 30mm again.

boo

[MiloMorai]

There is a video of a 30mm exploding in the fuselage between the wing and the tail of a Blenheim. It was hung there and remotely exploded.

[DaveBB]

A postwar study of 50 caliber ammunition found that only API (armor piercing incendiary) was effective in downing enemy aircraft.  The reason being that it set off secondary explosions, namely fuel and ammunition.  Ball ammo was only effective if it hit the pilot or some major load bearing structure. 

On a side note, if this Spitfire was considered to be lost due to the destruction of control cables, what about aircraft like the F4U and FW-190?  They both used control rods for aileron control.

[Zerstorer]

A postwar study of 50 caliber ammunition found that only API (armor piercing incendiary) was effective in downing enemy aircraft.  The reason being that it set off secondary explosions, namely fuel and ammunition.  Ball ammo was only effective if it hit the pilot or some major load bearing structure. 

On a side note, if this Spitfire was considered to be lost due to the destruction of control cables, what about aircraft like the F4U and FW-190?  They both used control rods for aileron control.

Good point.  I'd think control rods might have a better chance of resisting the effects of indirect damage from explosives.

Does anyone know if the A6M used HE ammo (like the 20mm M-Geschoss) in the wing cannons?  I'm pretty sure those cannons were licensed copies of the German MG/FFs.  Just curious if the ammo was similar and if that the use of HE rounds might partly account for the reputation of Navy planes taking enemy fire but still able to return to the CV.

[PR3D4TOR]

Control rods would most likely get jammed.

[Patt2014]

I"ve seen photos online at I think at the Carl library or NatArch of 30mm test on a Blem. bomber. Blew a hole in the fuselage the size of my front door. Surprisingly the air frame ribs were hardly damaged. I guess if there isn't a lot on contain the blast (like open fuselage) the blast is allowed to expand more readily unlike a wing hit where the blast is much more contained.

[PR3D4TOR]

Spitfire fuselage hit.



Blenheim fuselage hit. (Must be the static test MiloMorai mentioned.)

[PR3D4TOR]

20 mm hit on a 109 tail.




.50 cal hits on a 109 wing.

[Latrobe]

What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.

[Zerstorer]

What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.

If the round was HE rather than an AP I could see where the engine might still run, 30mm or otherwise.  Engines being just a big block of steel the explosion would cause damage to hoses, pipe work, etc...which might let the engine run for a bit before the oil ran out, engine overheated etc.  I'm not a mechanic... but that seems plausable to me.

[wpeters]

They hit really hard in real life.  Here is what happens to a engine

http://youtu.be/rDOAb_E8EtU

http://youtu.be/4sFpis5A_7k

[colmbo]

They hit really hard in real life.  Here is what happens to a engine

http://youtu.be/rDOAb_E8EtU

http://youtu.be/4sFpis5A_7k

That first vid with the B-17 showed fuel fires…the hits were in the #1 and #4 fuel tanks.

The B-24 vid was probably a hit to the turbocharger on the #2 engine.

Very difficult to get an engine hit on either of those aircraft from dead 6 like that.

[Devil 505]

What kind of damage would a 30mm do to the engine of a plane? I would think it would wreck it to the point where it would stop working immediately. In AH2 though a plane can take a 30mm to the engine and fly with an oil leak for about another 30 seconds.

If the round was HE rather than an AP I could see where the engine might still run, 30mm or otherwise.  Engines being just a big block of steel the explosion would cause damage to hoses, pipe work, etc...which might let the engine run for a bit before the oil ran out, engine overheated etc.  I'm not a mechanic... but that seems plausable to me.

Damage to lines, hoses, and wires is most likely. Remember that the engine is in most cases surrounded by the aircraft skin and the round would not detonate against the engine block, cylinder head, etc. That said, a hit near the intake/ supercharger assembly would result in immediate damage to the internal engine components via FODing. Also, given the strength of the 30mm round's explosive charge I could see the concussion forces being high enough to possibly fracture the block or cylinder head. Either way, a hit near the engine would likely knock it out fairly quickly.