Multiple Cons versus Me

[Someguy63]

As the title states, I have problems with a number of things :


• I don't know how to properly avoid a shot from an enemy from certain positions
• I don't know how to avoid shots from 2 or more cons at the very same time
• I can't keep my E well when outnumbered, therefore I can't make shots where I had an opportunity to knock someone out.
• I have trouble knowing the energy states of the enemies I'm fighting (don't know when they're slowing down to saddle)
• I don't know when I can gain a 'safe' opportunity to kill someone, I often lose patience and try for a shot on someone when there's a con closing D1000 at 400mph. In most of my fights like this 90% of my shots are forced and usually end up with me getting damaged, killed, or in a bad position.



This may sound like rubbish, I don't really understand how to think during situations like this when I'm outnumbered, only thing I know well is the simplest thing....watch where tf everyone is. <----and I also sux at that.           

[Vudu15]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfLkpT1KQps

[FLS]

As the title states, I have problems with a number of things :


• I don't know how to properly avoid a shot from an enemy from certain positions
• I don't know how to avoid shots from 2 or more cons at the very same time
• I can't keep my E well when outnumbered, therefore I can't make shots where I had an opportunity to knock someone out.
• I have trouble knowing the energy states of the enemies I'm fighting (don't know when they're slowing down to saddle)
• I don't know when I can gain a 'safe' opportunity to kill someone, I often lose patience and try for a shot on someone when there's a con closing D1000 at 400mph. In most of my fights like this 90% of my shots are forced and usually end up with me getting damaged, killed, or in a bad position.



This may sound like rubbish, I don't really understand how to think during situations like this when I'm outnumbered, only thing I know well is the simplest thing....watch where tf everyone is. <----and I also sux at that.          

Let's start with more specifics on the first one. Which "certain positions" are a problem?

[MajWoody]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQrhDYTfS8hlyZ64kWAGCmw

[BaldEagl]

100% of your problem, or close to it, is SA.  Keep your head on a swivel and NEVER stop tracking cons who could pose a threat. 

"I often lose patience and try for a shot on someone when there's a con closing D1000 at 400mph. " tells me you're getting lazy with your SA and all of your other problems most likely stem from this.

[TequilaChaser]

100% of your problem, or close to it, is SA.  Keep your head on a swivel and NEVER stop tracking cons who could pose a threat. 

"I often lose patience and try for a shot on someone when there's a con closing D1000 at 400mph. " tells me you're getting lazy with your SA and all of your other problems most likely stem from this.

I was in the process of typing my reply and BE replied before I could hit post key............I basically was going to say that every point you posted about Anarchy has to do with SA ( Situational Awareness )

BE ( baldeagl ), noticed it, and I am sure FLS noticed it, but FLS is taking the Trainer's approach /observance and breaking it down to one posted point at a time ( is the way I took his reply to you, anyways )

TC

[Puma44]

As the title states, I have problems with a number of things :


• I don't know how to properly avoid a shot from an enemy from certain positions
• I don't know how to avoid shots from 2 or more cons at the very same time
• I can't keep my E well when outnumbered, therefore I can't make shots where I had an opportunity to knock someone out.
• I have trouble knowing the energy states of the enemies I'm fighting (don't know when they're slowing down to saddle)
• I don't know when I can gain a 'safe' opportunity to kill someone, I often lose patience and try for a shot on someone when there's a con closing D1000 at 400mph. In most of my fights like this 90% of my shots are forced and usually end up with me getting damaged, killed, or in a bad position.



This may sound like rubbish, I don't really understand how to think during situations like this when I'm outnumbered, only thing I know well is the simplest thing....watch where tf everyone is. <----and I also sux at that.           

It appears that you haven't been introduced the basics of ACM/BFM and the application of lift vector, in/out of plane maneuvering, and the "energy egg" concept.  Do some some research and the get with someone who knows these basics and can teach you how to apply them.  Morfiend is an excellent one to learn from.  

[NikonGuy]

Its just experience .. and to think guys went into actual combat with only hours on an aircraft type during ww2

Get with a trainer or I am happy to spend time in the Training Arena with you.

Also if you are not in a squad, get in one but importantly fly and wingman with someone who knows this stuff.  You will pick it up fast believe me

Nikon <S>

[Someguy63]

It appears that you haven't been introduced the basics of ACM/BFM and the application of lift vector, in/out of plane maneuvering, and the "energy egg" concept.  Do some some research and the get with someone who knows these basics and can teach you how to apply them.  Morfiend is an excellent one to learn from.  

I understand the basics actually, it's that I fight in situations where I'm outnumbered I just don't understand how to work the plane around. <-----To better say that, well I sometimes do keep my SA up well, but when it gets to the point where the guys attacking me are making passes and coming back in after they're 1K out is when I have problems. That may seem to have a way out of it but this stuff happens when I'm below them basically all the time.

100% of your problem, or close to it, is SA.  Keep your head on a swivel and NEVER stop tracking cons who could pose a threat.  

"I often lose patience and try for a shot on someone when there's a con closing D1000 at 400mph. " tells me you're getting lazy with your SA and all of your other problems most likely stem from this.

Yeah, that is something I need to work on personally since no one can really help with that. It's just not fun doing it with a hat switch.

Let's start with more specifics on the first one. Which "certain positions" are a problem?

I have problems avoiding shots when I have an enemy in a spiral climb, I'm not sure exactly how to perform one, and the enemy often gets a brief second to shoot and that always gets me. <----That however is rare for me to do when I'm outnumbered, and the one I have most problems avoiding is an enemy coming in from from 3 to 5 and 7-9 o clock when slow, and pulling onto my six. When I'm at a higher speed I just do a barrel roll in the direction they come from, but when they're slow I try barrel rolls and die, I'm not sure what to do there, either I do the rolls a bit too easy, and am wondering if I should do it a bit wider.

The main one is when they're coming from my six, I can never pull enough to avoid the shot well and I just stick with that stupid thing where I push down on the stick and turn a bit to avoid the shot.

[Latrobe]

MajWoody already posted a link to a video I have of fighting out numbered (I think it gets up to 6v1 at one point)



-Need more info to go on. What kind of certain shots do you struggle avoiding?

-Get your opponents into the same part of the air whenever possible. You can easily do this by extending for just a little bit. It's much easier to track and avoid shots from 2 planes coming from your 6 than it is to track and avoid shots from 1 plane on your 6 and another on your 12.

-Again, as above, getting them into the same airspace whenever possible will help a little here. You will save E if you pull 1 move and get 2 overshoots instead of pulling 2 moves for 2 overshoots. Fighting outnumbered is kind of like fighting someone with more altitude; you can only go offensive for a brief moment on the overshoots. There will be someone else coming in for a shot after his friend overshoots and learning these "windows" of opportunity is key. Keep up the SA and keep track of all your opponents and what they are doing. If a 190 comes screaming in at 400mph and misses, more often than not he's going to extend a bit to climb and come back for another pass. This gives you about a 5-10 seconds (depending on how aggressive he is) window of opportunity to deal with someone else before he comes back. You can take this time to line up a shot on someone, or set up to avoid a shot from someone else and then have a few seconds to take a shot on him when he overshoots before the 190 starts coming back in. If you find yourself running low of speed and unable to continue avoiding shots then you have to get some speed back somehow. The easiest way is to dive and give up altitude for speed. If you don't have very much (or no) altitude to convert to speed then your only hope is to extend to build speed up and slow climb if possible to gain some altitude to work with. This has the added benefit of getting all your opponents into the same airspace as talked about above, but sometimes you'll run into a group a pilots who actually know how to work together and just won't let you extend to build speed back up. It's vitally important to be able to read the fight early on to tell if these are just some random folks who are more concerned about getting another kill for themself or if they are buddies working together. If you can tell that these guys are working together then you're going to have the be extra careful fighting them and try to resist the urge to take any unnecessary risks (like trying to force a shot, target fixation, etc).

-Judging energy states can be quite difficult, especially against opponents who are good at hiding their energy. Knowing their plane is an excellent start to knowing their energy state. Things like a zeke gets sluggish and starts putting himself at risk of breaking his own plane at around 350mph while a P-51 stays maneuverable up to 550 or so. The hardest part is trying to figure out if your opponent has cut his throttle to saddle up on you. I myself can't seem to stop dying to P38s doing this in their dive (   ) but knowing how fast he's SUPPOSE to be closing on you if he were full throttle will help you figure this out when you suddenly think "why hasn't he overshoot yet?" 

-As talked about above, try to learn the "windows". In a 2 on 1, let's say you in a 109K4 vs a Dora and 51D, you are engaged with the 190 in a turning fight when the 51 shows up high and comes diving in on you. You make your move against the 51, he misses, and zooms by climbing back up to his perch. You now have a window of about 5-10 seconds (depending on if the 51 climbs all the way back up or if he's more aggressive and turns back sooner) to now deal with the 190. Never be fooled by your opponent though and assume you have time because you think he'll climb. Check on the 51 frequently to see what he's up to. You don't have to stare at him to figure things out, just a quick glance will do. Is he still climbing? Has he reached the top of his loop? Did he dump his altitude advantage to turn back in aggressively? Is he attack me? If you have a shot opportunity on someone but you see a plane D1000 closing on you, abandon the shot and avoid the attacker. You may get the kill but you will die for it. You can always get another shot opportunity but you can't undo being shot down (well, you can reup but I think you know what I mean   )

[mbailey]

Being that I fly a 2 engine billboard most of the time, the best advice I've ever rec'd regarding fighting multiple cons (turn fighting)  is "stay skinny"  give them the thinnest possible profile

[Latrobe]

the one I have most problems avoiding is an enemy coming in from from 3 to 5 and 7-9 o clock when slow, and pulling onto my six. When I'm at a higher speed I just do a barrel roll in the direction they come from, but when they're slow I try barrel rolls and die, I'm not sure what to do there, either I do the rolls a bit too easy, and am wondering if I should do it a bit wider.

Sounds like you're barrel rolling too earlier and it's just letting them close the gap quicker. Are you turning into them first or going straight into the barrel roll? What plane they are flying and what plane you are flying is also a very important thing to consider as well. I know you like the 109 (same as me ) and depending on what model of the 109 you are flying there are different things you can do against 1 plane. For example, if the slow plane coming in from your 3-5 is a zeke and you're in a 109F you can get away with turn fighting him, so you can pull hard into him and then do your barrel roll and fight things out. If you were in a K4 (or even a G2) then you'll find turn fighting a zeke significantly more difficult and I would recommend going into a turn fight only as a last ditch effort or if you have no other choice.

Going back to the barrel roll, I'm thinking you're just pulling it too early as you said you die in slow speeds and not high speeds. You might be pulling the barrel roll at the same distance for slow speeds as you do at high speeds and this is why you die. At slower speeds you want to do your barrel roll at a much closer range, usually just as they get into effective gun range (D600-400).

The main one is when they're coming from my six, I can never pull enough to avoid the shot well and I just stick with that stupid thing where I push down on the stick and turn a bit to avoid the shot.

This might just be because you're going up against a plane that can simply turn tighter than you. If that's the case then your problem is learning the strengths and weaknesses of some aircraft. If it's not the plane matchup then I can only guess that you just aren't pulling a tight enough turn, probably to try and save as much E as possible and just barely avoid the shot. I'm guilty of doing this at times as well and I'm learning the hard way it's better to be safe than dead . This is an internet game and what looks like "just barely enough" might look like an easy shot on your opponents end. I know many many times I'll turn and think I'm just outside their guns but then I see them shoot tracers into the space 400 yards behind me and I take damage. What looked like "just enough" on my end was a shot opportunity for them.

[DmonSlyr]

MajWoody already posted a link to a video I have of fighting out numbered (I think it gets up to 6v1 at one point)



-Need more info to go on. What kind of certain shots do you struggle avoiding?

-Get your opponents into the same part of the air whenever possible. You can easily do this by extending for just a little bit. It's much easier to track and avoid shots from 2 planes coming from your 6 than it is to track and avoid shots from 1 plane on your 6 and another on your 12.

-Again, as above, getting them into the same airspace whenever possible will help a little here. You will save E if you pull 1 move and get 2 overshoots instead of pulling 2 moves for 2 overshoots. Fighting outnumbered is kind of like fighting someone with more altitude; you can only go offensive for a brief moment on the overshoots. There will be someone else coming in for a shot after his friend overshoots and learning these "windows" of opportunity is key. Keep up the SA and keep track of all your opponents and what they are doing. If a 190 comes screaming in at 400mph and misses, more often than not he's going to extend a bit to climb and come back for another pass. This gives you about a 5-10 seconds (depending on how aggressive he is) window of opportunity to deal with someone else before he comes back. You can take this time to line up a shot on someone, or set up to avoid a shot from someone else and then have a few seconds to take a shot on him when he overshoots before the 190 starts coming back in. If you find yourself running low of speed and unable to continue avoiding shots then you have to get some speed back somehow. The easiest way is to dive and give up altitude for speed. If you don't have very much (or no) altitude to convert to speed then your only hope is to extend to build speed up and slow climb if possible to gain some altitude to work with. This has the added benefit of getting all your opponents into the same airspace as talked about above, but sometimes you'll run into a group a pilots who actually know how to work together and just won't let you extend to build speed back up. It's vitally important to be able to read the fight early on to tell if these are just some random folks who are more concerned about getting another kill for themself or if they are buddies working together. If you can tell that these guys are working together then you're going to have the be extra careful fighting them and try to resist the urge to take any unnecessary risks (like trying to force a shot, target fixation, etc).

-Judging energy states can be quite difficult, especially against opponents who are good at hiding their energy. Knowing their plane is an excellent start to knowing their energy state. Things like a zeke gets sluggish and starts putting himself at risk of breaking his own plane at around 350mph while a P-51 stays maneuverable up to 550 or so. The hardest part is trying to figure out if your opponent has cut his throttle to saddle up on you. I myself can't seem to stop dying to P38s doing this in their dive (   ) but knowing how fast he's SUPPOSE to be closing on you if he were full throttle will help you figure this out when you suddenly think "why hasn't he overshoot yet?"  

-As talked about above, try to learn the "windows". In a 2 on 1, let's say you in a 109K4 vs a Dora and 51D, you are engaged with the 190 in a turning fight when the 51 shows up high and comes diving in on you. You make your move against the 51, he misses, and zooms by climbing back up to his perch. You now have a window of about 5-10 seconds (depending on if the 51 climbs all the way back up or if he's more aggressive and turns back sooner) to now deal with the 190. Never be fooled by your opponent though and assume you have time because you think he'll climb. Check on the 51 frequently to see what he's up to. You don't have to stare at him to figure things out, just a quick glance will do. Is he still climbing? Has he reached the top of his loop? Did he dump his altitude advantage to turn back in aggressively? Is he attack me? If you have a shot opportunity on someone but you see a plane D1000 closing on you, abandon the shot and avoid the attacker. You may get the kill but you will die for it. You can always get another shot opportunity but you can't undo being shot down (well, you can reup but I think you know what I mean  )

What he said   judging E is so important.

Sometimes even having good SA, there isn't anything you can do you to escape 3-4 guys who are diving on you.

A little trick I like to use if I can, is to get all of your followers directly on your 6. If you can manage to get all the attackers on your 6, about 1000-600 out, then you can do 1 move on them and get them all to overshoot. That move is the one I showed you (barrel roll defense) this will possibly set you up for a quick snap shot on at least one of the planes. If you cannot get a shot. Quickly level out and attempt to get them back on your 6 and try again, or if they attempt a tight barrel roll you can get inside of it and out roll them, if 2 go up and one does a roll, stick with the roll around and attempt to get him. At one point the other planes will come back around and you will have to judge the timing of when to avoid them/force overshot while you are rolling with the other guy.
If these guys are good at keeping E then you will have a hard time.

Avoid getting caught in a slow rope while you are trying to make the shot on the overshoot. This is the easiest position for a pick, or for the others to come around and get an easy shot. If you have to pull up too high for a shot then forget about it and level out.

Remember, if they overshoot, this gives you a couple seconds to forget about them and worry about the next guy in line. You can figure out ways to shoot one of them down as the others are going up and over.

With a little bit of alt (like latrobe said) and some E you can do nose down turns to BRD and get them to miss. It's one of those things where you have to do it over and over again in the same fight, so it can get strenuous.

[Muzzy]

Fighting multiple cons takes a mix of skills, knowledge and luck. There are very few who can walk into a 3v1 or higher with a decent chance of winning every time, much less surviving. The times I've won under those conditions were predicated on the following factors.

1. I flew a plane I had absolute confidence in. (The FM2).

Knowing your bird means more than flying competently.  It means you know exactly when she'll stall, what she will do at any given alt, e state, or configuration including flap settings and when missing pieces. It also means having a plan for defeating every other bird in the game and being able to fly and maneuver while looking out each window view.

2. Prioritize targets in order of threat levels. In an FM2 that means dodging the bnz guys and killing the turn birds first. In a mustang it means killing anything that might catch you and then knocking off the pesky Brewster last. Remember threat levels are always subject to change.

3. Fly to your strengths and make them fly against theirs. Force the jugs to turn, force the brew to chase, force the yak to shoot and miss.

4. Steal every advantage from sun, and terrain. Who cares what they say about you on 200? You're outnumbered.  Scrape them off trees, blind them by flying into the sun, hide in hills or limit their options by fighting in a steep valley.

5. Survive first,  shoot second. Don't push for a shot if it's going to expose you to another con. The longer you live the better the chances that they'll make a mistake.

With regards to SA, there are exercises you can do to improve.

1. Up your favorite ride and practice doing rolls, barrel rolls, immelmans,  etc. all while staring out your rear view. Do the same looking up, rear up, and every other plane view.

2. Every time you arrive at a furball, take whatever time you have to assess the e state of every plane, friend or enemy. Make note of the ones you can't easily identify,  and be especially wary of them. Some birds like corsairs can be tricky. If you can, fly around the edge of a fight for a few minutes and observe how the relative e states change. I will usually stay out of low fights if my side has a distinct advantage,  and that can afford the opportunity to learn e states without trying to fight at the same time.

3. Film it. Study it. Watch it from external and internal views and also from the point of view of your adversaries.

Hope that helps.

[FLS]

I have problems avoiding shots when I have an enemy in a spiral climb, I'm not sure exactly how to perform one, and the enemy often gets a brief second to shoot and that always gets me. <----That however is rare for me to do when I'm outnumbered, and the one I have most problems avoiding is an enemy coming in from from 3 to 5 and 7-9 o clock when slow, and pulling onto my six. When I'm at a higher speed I just do a barrel roll in the direction they come from, but when they're slow I try barrel rolls and die, I'm not sure what to do there, either I do the rolls a bit too easy, and am wondering if I should do it a bit wider.

The main one is when they're coming from my six, I can never pull enough to avoid the shot well and I just stick with that stupid thing where I push down on the stick and turn a bit to avoid the shot.

On a spiral climb you want the bandit to turn while climbing just as you are, but you need enough energy advantage so they can't get a good shot. Ideally they will pull too hard and stall, you'll see the nose or a wing drop, and that's when you reverse and attack them. Energy is speed and altitude and you need an advantage in one or both for a spiral climb defense or a rope a dope setup.

A guns defense in a turning fight requires an understanding of turn circles. Every aircraft has a minimum turn radius based on it's speed and performance characteristics. Call this it's potential best turn circle. If the bandit is inside your turn circle you can't shoot them because turning any harder will stall you.
This why you hear advice to fly inside the attacker's turn. It means get inside their turn circle. This is also why you sometimes can't pull enough to get a shot, the bandit is inside your turn. Part of SA is judging the current size of the attacker's turn circle, so you know where to point your nose to get inside it.

Flying a barrel roll will by itself make you a harder target but turning inside the attacker's turn will make it impossible to shoot you. Flying to the outside just solves all the angular problems for your attacker. You often see a turning aircraft that you can't get your guns on suddenly reverse for no reason and give you a shot. If you are turning defensively and not getting shot, wait until the attacker has a shot at you, that means he's pulling lead and you're under his nose. That's the time to reverse your turn.

To maintain E, or to avoid wasting it, don't turn harder and don't go lower than you need to. When you have a choice of targets pick the biggest threat, when no target is a threat pick the highest target that you can engage with the least amount of turning.

The basics of ACM are the same for fighting one bandit or several at once. Fighting multiple cons from a disadvantage is a situation where you generally lose. To be successful you need enough experience to know what to do without thinking about it, you need to work very hard to track and prioritize threats, and you can't miss your shots because you may only get one at each target.