How to escape a rolling scissors

[Skyyr]

In broad terms, to tighten up turns so you stay behind the bandit and keep away from the sharp end not giving him enough space to get around for a shot on you.  Is that wrong thinking?

Wiley.

Chopping your throttle is a blanket reaction that is many times wrong.

The winner of a rolling scissors is the pilot who can create the lowest forward velocity component. It has less to do with throttle and more to do with wingloading and lift vector.

For example, an Me-262 at zero throttle will still lose a rolling scissors to a A6M2 with a firewalled throttle, when flown correctly.

So FLS is correct, "chopping throttle" isn't the correct response. You typically want to reduce your airspeed to your minimum vertical maneuvering airspeed. When you're going fast, this can mean chopping your throttle. The end-goal, however, is not to continually bleed airspeed, but to bleed down your forward velocity. This is done by the vertical rolling aspect of the scissors (hence "rolling scissors").

As a rule of thumb, you want to continue to lose airspeed down to the minimum airspeed you can go vertical. As you slow, you'll find that you'll need flaps to maximize lift at the slower airspeeds, which in turn require a higher throttle setting. This many times requires you to add throttle at specific times as the scissors progresses.

The rolling scissors is about throttle control, not throttle chopping.

[FLS]

In broad terms, to tighten up turns so you stay behind the bandit and keep away from the sharp end not giving him enough space to get around for a shot on you.  Is that wrong thinking?

Wiley.

If you are below corner speed how does reducing thrust tighten a turn? How much of a rolling scissors is usually above corner speed?

General advice needs to be generally true. Reducing thrust is only beneficial in limited situations. When you advise reducing thrust without specifying the conditions where it's beneficial you are giving bad general advice.

Nikonguy may have good advice to share and simply failed to explain it enough to be useful. Asking him for more detail might help with that.

[glzsqd]

The point of a rolling scissor is to get behind your opponent correct

What a lot of flyers seem to forget, is that chopping your throttle is part of the manoeuvre.

If you want to get very good at acm, throttle management (GOOD throttle management) is a BIG part of it.

Many people out there that just push the throttle forward and leave it there

<S>

I agree that GOOD throttle management is important, but Chopping throttle at the wrong times is probably worse than if you had the throttle wide open the entire time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWIKVF-SFUk  This video sums up what happens when you cut the throttle at the wrong times vs someone who's most likely balls-to-the-wall.

I have very little knowledge or understanding of actual ACM or even BFM, but from what I can gather A rolling Scissors is about who moves Forward the least.

[FLS]

Do i firewall and full wep during a rolling scissors?

A rolling scissors as we define it in AH is a sustained vertical turn.

Your best sustained turn is at your critical AOA or max lift co-efficient.

The amount of g load available at the critical AOA changes with your speed.

In a vertical turn your speed is constantly changing so your best vertical turn matches the change in speed with a change in the load factor.

To answer my own earlier question, the bottom of the roller is where you may exceed corner speed.

Corner speed as you know is where you can get your fastest turn rate and smallest no flaps turn radius.

You can reduce speed by turning hard or by reducing throttle or doing both.

If you can stay near corner speed by turning hard there is no need to reduce throttle.

The top of the roller is generally below corner speed so you want full throttle and WEP.

The exception at the top of the roller would be when you get too slow, stall, and the torque overcomes your stability unless you reduce thrust.

At the critical AOA you are hearing the stall horn and you're on the edge of the stall buffet.

If you are pointing above the horizon you'll need to ease your pull as gravity slows you down.

Once you point your inverted aircraft below the horizon you can pull hard to take advantage of gravity reducing your load factor.

Generally you'll fly lag pursuit in a rolling scissors but you can fly lead pursuit when inverted at the top.

[DmonSlyr]

Sometimes this will work against lesser skilled pilot but if you are in a plane that holds E well and the enemy is jumping your six with more speed. You can "fake out" an enemy by getting into a defensive rolling scissors, then while watching them based on judging their E (takes experience) if they cut throttle too hard, you have now evened out or reversed E them. When you get to the top of the roll over, instead of rolling back over to go down, you roll over and go up, trying to go the opposite direction of them while going up. Then they will come around and go up to try and shoot you. At this point, you can attempt a spiral rope climb and you may be able to out rope them and fall back on top for a kill.

This move takes a lot of practice and experience of judging E. But if you are in a plane that cannot out scissor the enemy, you may be able to get them in this position after the first or second roll around. This may work well for example if a 109g2 is chasing a tempest. The tempest will not out scissor a G2. But if you get the G2 to chop all of is speed in a rolling scissors, you can thus change the scissors into a split S at the top and then do split S or go into a spiral rope move and then if done right, you can fall over and get the shot or extend away on the downward slope and the enemy is stalling out of controll.

This takes a lot of experience, but it is one of the few ways to reverse a rolling scissors if your plane cannot out roll the enemy plane.

[Puma44]

Effective use of the lift vector and energy management is key to success.

[Scotch]

I remember me and scotch in c202's in a fight over the runway, that lasted seemed like for ever, if I remember correctly I think one of use eventually augered, but the fight itself had several separate rolling scissors fights in it, each of us resetting it if one of us felt we were losing....

hope this helps   ( Scotch did you save any of those films from like 2 years or so back? they would be great for this discussion)

I remember that fight. I'm pretty sure it was a final KOTH or ToC round. Unfortunately, if I still have my AH films, they're all on my old laptop back in Alaska and I'm down in Oregon right now.

 

[Scotch]

Sickest kill ever!

I forget who it was but I remember that guy was so mad. 
When I had some time to fly a couple years ago I was really practicing on putting the 152 into that departure and eventually recovering from it. I needed at least 3k alt.
No way I could do it now though. heh. Not to derail this thread anymore. 

[2bighorn]

Please explain how chopping throttle is required in a rolling scissors.

Rolling scissors close to the deck is one example. If you go full throttle downward, chances are you'll hit the deck.

There are many more reasons to manage throttle in rolling scissors.

[FLS]

Rolling scissors close to the deck is one example. If you go full throttle downward, chances are you'll hit the deck.

There are many more reasons to manage throttle in rolling scissors.

That's a possibility but it's not a certainty and that was the point of the question. I covered the situation where thrust increased the turn radius and also torquing off when stalled.  If you'd like to list the many more reasons you mentioned I'm sure that would be helpful.

[2bighorn]

That's a possibility but it's not a certainty and that was the point of the question. I covered the situation where thrust increased the turn radius and also torquing off when stalled.  If you'd like to list the many more reasons you mentioned I'm sure that would be helpful.

OK, few more:
Flaps management, ie Ki-84 (auto-retraction)
Disimilar planes ie 109F vs Hurri

Now that I think of, the only time I didn't manage the throttle in rolling scissors was back in the days I didn't know better.

[NikonGuy]

Its not about just chopping throttle no matter what .. its a complex scenario that requires experience and knowing WHEN to chop throttle and WHEN to be balls to the wall.. also knowing when to use flaps as opposed to not using flaps  

Lots of variables depending on speed, aircraft flown, pilots experience etc, etc.

<S>

Edit: and when I say chop throttle it doesn't necessarily mean all the way .. you might only reduce to half throttle depending on whats going on

[FLS]

OK, few more:
Flaps management, ie Ki-84 (auto-retraction)
Disimilar planes ie 109F vs Hurri

Now that I think of, the only time I didn't manage the throttle in rolling scissors was back in the days I didn't know better.

Could you describe how throttle work benefits dissimilar aircraft in a rolling scissors so that new players can understand your point?

[2bighorn]

Could you describe how throttle work benefits dissimilar aircraft in a rolling scissors so that new players can understand your point?

In case of 109F and Hurri, 109 doesn't turn as well, but accelerates/climbs better, so you compensate with larger helix radius. You still want to keep it tight though otherwise better turner (hurri) can cut into you and get a shot. And to stay tight, you have to manage throttle, especially downhill and close to/on the tops.

But even in equal planes, managing throttle downhill means you tighten up your helix, your lower point will be higher, which in turn means you will start climbing sooner and your highest point will be above your opponent.
Repeat few times and you'll have enough of either E or positional advantage, or both, to kill other guy.

[FLS]

Another way to say that is you're lead turning on the bottom of the roller to gain angles and you lag over the top to gain altitude(E).

This creates offset turn circles which can give shot opportunities to both aircraft so that would be something to watch out for. It could also bait the bandit to blow his E for a snap shot and leave you above with energy and position.

It's important to emphasize that it's knowing your best sustained turn speed and g, with and without flaps, and your corner speed at 6g, which tells you when you need to cut throttle and when you want full throttle and WEP.