Author Topic: 3 isn't enough...  (Read 8722 times)

Offline Zoney

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2015, 01:02:02 PM »

I can say I've done better than a majority of players with even 5x my flight hours... and we both know it.  :aok  Remember, I've just been here a year.


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Offline Skyyr

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2015, 01:14:26 PM »

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Yep - created my forum account back in 2006, back when about 20 other FA pilots came over to try the game out. Doesn't mean I've been flying since then.
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline glzsqd

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2015, 01:24:52 PM »
I tried posting a Video of one of my flights on to youtube but it immediately re-routed me to YouPorn.....


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Offline Dragon Tamer

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2015, 01:27:59 PM »
I tried posting a Video of one of my flights on to youtube but it immediately re-routed me to YouPorn.....

Did you at least try and upload it while you were there?

Offline GhostCDB

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2015, 01:29:01 PM »
Did you at least try and upload it while you were there?

:lol
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2015, 01:50:15 PM »
Did you at least try and upload it while you were there?

What choice did I have  :D


I guess the conversations I had in the text buffer are to "explicit" for regular youtube.
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Offline ink

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2015, 02:06:31 PM »
I believe  ACM stands for advanced Combat Manuver.  Which is to say that a front quarter shot is as legit as a rear shot.  The only difference is that the ho puts you in his gunsight also.   
Now if you write a Ah ACM book and leave out the front shots then you can say it isn't a ACM

If it comes to honor technically speaking  a home should be the honorable shot.  Because isn't honorable to shoot someone in the back.

Hoing is a tactic...not ACM.


in another age and day yes shooting someone in the back was a cowardly act....

but in the age of dogfighting...and most especially "virtual dogfighting" where 2 or more people try to use ACM to kill one another.....


well I think you know where I am going with this. ;)

Offline Skyyr

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2015, 02:38:49 PM »
Hoing is a tactic...not ACM.


in another age and day yes shooting someone in the back was a cowardly act....

but in the age of dogfighting...and most especially "virtual dogfighting" where 2 or more people try to use ACM to kill one another.....


well I think you know where I am going with this. ;)

Let's clarify something

Front-quarter and head-on (HO) are not the same thing. Shooting someone from the front-quarter is not necessarily a HO.

ACM, at its core, is established to solve weapon-solution problems, which are both angular and geometric in nature. This means that if you can get your guns on the opponent, ACM has done its job. Front-quarter shots were never in question, and absolutely never have been.

What did come into question was the mutually-assured destruction we call a "head-on" attack, which implies zero or near-zero deflection. If both opponents approach each other with near-zero deflection, both can presumably shoot each other - this presents a danger to the pilot who wants to live past the engagement and is generally a no-brainer. The shot itself was still never in question, but rather the vulnerability it places you at. Yet again, the head-on attack by the very fact that it has a definition is a valid ACM tactic. It just isn't a wise one to use unless you massively outgun your opponent or are at a maneuvering and airspeed disadvantage.

So, going forward -

Front-quarter shots: Good.
Head-on shots: Iffy and generally unwise.

Now that we've established that, let's focus on front-quarter shots. You seem to imply that taking a front-quarter shot is somehow less skilled... "because ACM." No, ACM exists to bring your guns onto an opponent. Whether it's done from the front or back matters not.

The real issue here is experience. When two turnfighters meet, most are usually jockeying for angular gain at the merge, which requires being offset from the opponent. This usually precludes being able to take a shot at the same time, so you rarely run into two experienced turnfighters who will take such a shot.

However, once you introduce energy fighting tactics, things change quite a bit.

Energy fighters aren't generally preoccupied with angular gains, therefore they have no inherent requirement to offset their merges, allowing them a great amount of freedom to take shots. Mix an energy fighter (who's looking for any shot possible) with a turnfighter (who is looking almost entirely for angular gains) and the turnfighter is going to get shot up on almost every possible pass. This is simply the nature of energy vs turning tactics.

An experienced turnfighter will see this and understand the dynamic of why this is occuring. An inexperienced one, or one who has little experience to anything except his style of flight, is going to make excuses and cry and whine about said tactics, not understanding why they happen or the necessity of such shots to the other style of flight.

It never occurs to the turnfighter that if they flew head-on against the energy fighter, the energy fighter would likely avoid such shots. Instead, the turn-fighter blindly continues to try to gain angles on the merge and then complains when they are shot for presenting such an undefended target to the energy-fighting attacker.

This is merging tactics 101, and is a given in air combat sims as a whole.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 03:01:41 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2015, 02:40:36 PM »
Hoing is a tactic...not ACM.


in another age and day yes shooting someone in the back was a cowardly act....

but in the age of dogfighting...and most especially "virtual dogfighting" where 2 or more people try to use ACM to kill one another.....


well I think you know where I am going with this. ;)

That is correct. It is a tactic. And nothing more.

ACMs are a set of maneuvers that attempt to put the pilot into an advantaged position over the other. A HO is mearly two pilots flying directly toward each other blazing their guns hoping the other misses. Therefore, neither pilot has performed any advantaged maneuvers. It is a very dangerous tactic. I wouldn't even try to get in this position in real life.
There is no skill level involved in a HO other than aiming. You can set up the HO merge all day long and practice shooting each other in the face. But A. You won't have an advantage B. You are not performing a maneuver to attempt to put yourself in an advantaged position. Therefore, a HO is not ACM.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 02:48:00 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2015, 02:49:29 PM »
:headscratch: I don't get why HOing(Front Quarter shots) is such an issue, they're pretty difficult shots to make, and rather easy to avoid. If someone is going to cut in front of your flight path and not pay attention, is it wrong to make them pay for lazy SA? Here is a clip of me taking a shot at a 190 on the merge. How am I not supposed to take a shot like this? Through experience I know most 190D's won't commit to an aggressive merge when roughly co-alt and co-E, especially against a plane that handles and climbs better.

 As a general rule you should always expect someone to pull the trigger when their guns are pointed at you, because in the end that what dog fighting is all about.


TBH, HO shots are the coolest looking, thats mostly why I don't understand why people get so mad about them.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 02:54:26 PM by glzsqd »
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2015, 02:54:50 PM »
:headscratch: I don't get why HOing(Front Quarter shots) is such an issue, they're pretty difficult shots to make, and rather easy to avoid.

Bingo. They're not any more of a true issue than anything else is. The predominant reason you hear about them is when players, generally turnfighters, attempt to use aggressive merging tactics to gain angles at the start of a fight. These types of merges have very big tells and can generally be shot with a good degree of consistency by someone with decent accuracy.

Typically a turnfighter tries to gain big angles at the merge, gets shot, then cries because their favorite tactic doesn't work like it did against players who didn't take the shot.

Notice you virtually never hear complaints about legitimate HO's (where both players lined-up and fired), it's almost always from a turnfighter who got nailed trying to pull lead and then claimed it was a HO that they held fire in after the fact.
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - 296

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 30-11

KOTH Wins: 6, Egos Broken: 1000+

Mmmmm... tears.

Offline ink

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2015, 02:56:00 PM »
Let's clarify something

Front-quarter and head-on (HO) are not the same thing. Shooting someone from the front-quarter is not necessarily a HO.

ACM, at its core, is established to solve weapon-solution problems, which are both angular and geometric in nature. This means that if you can get your guns on the opponent, ACM has done its job. Front-quarter shots were never in question, and absolutely never have been.

What did come into question was the mutually-assured destruction we call a "head-on" attack, which implies zero or near-zero deflection. If both opponents approach each other with near-zero deflection, both can presumably shoot each other - this presents a danger to the pilot who wants to live past the engagement and is generally a no-brainer. The shot itself was still never in question, but rather the vulnerability it places you at. Yet again, the head-on attack by the very fact that it has a definition is a valid ACM tactic. It just isn't a wise one to use unless you massively outgun your opponent or are at a maneuvering and airspeed disadvantage.

So, going forward -

Front-quarter shots: Good.
Head-on shots: Iffy and generally unwise.

Now that we've established that, let's focus on front-quarter shots. You seem to imply that taking a front-quarter shot is somehow less skilled... "because ACM." No, ACM exists to bring your guns onto an opponent. Whether it's done from the front or back matters not.

The real issue here is experience. When two turnfighters meet, most are usually jockeying for angular gain at the merge, which requires being offset from the opponent. This usually precludes being able to take a shot at the same time, so you rarely run into two experienced turnfighters who will take such a shot.

However, once you introduce energy fighting tactics, things change quite a bit.

Energy fighters aren't generally preoccupied with angular gains, therefore they have no inherent requirement to offset their merges, allowing them a great amount of freedom to take shots. Mix an energy fighter (who's looking for any shot possible) with a turnfighter (who is looking almost entirely for angular gains) and the turnfighter is going to get shot up on almost every possible pass. This is simply the nature of energy vs turning tactics.

An experienced turnfighter will see this and understand the dynamic of why this is occuring. An inexperienced one, or one who has little experience to anything except his style of flight, is going to make excuses and cry and whine about said tactics, not understanding why they happen or the necessity of such shots to the other style of flight.

It never occurs to the turnfighter that if they flew head-on against the energy fighter, the energy fighter would likely avoid such shots. Instead, the energy fighter blindly continues to try to gain angles on the merge and then complains when they are shot for presenting such an undefended target to the energy-fighting attacker.

This is merging tactics 101, and is a given in air combat sims as a whole.


well thank you for that engaging wall of text..... :rolleyes:


how can I say this without getting banned.......

nothing you say....nothing you do..will I ever contemplate.....


you have proven yourself to me to be type of person who I just don't like......

liars....


have a nice life.





Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2015, 03:12:28 PM »
:headscratch: I don't get why HOing(Front Quarter shots) is such an issue, they're pretty difficult shots to make, and rather easy to avoid. If someone is going to cut in front of your flight path and not pay attention, is it wrong to make them pay for lazy SA? Here is a clip of me taking a shot at a 190 on the merge. How am I not supposed to take a shot like this? Through experience I know most 190D's won't commit to an aggressive merge when roughly co-alt and co-E, especially against a plane that handles and climbs better.

 As a general rule you should always expect someone to pull the trigger when their guns are pointed at you, because in the end that what dog fighting is all about.


TBH, HO shots are the coolest looking, thats mostly why I don't understand why people get so mad about them.

In a duel, if both players can swing around and get dead nose to nose then it resets the merge and either player should have the benefit of setting up there next ACM tactic regardless of what tactic they choose ans not have to avoid the HO shot. It is known in AH as honorable dueling. Now of you flip over first and they have not got the nose all the way around at you hit them that is a fair front quarter shot. IMO there is a big difference in that. In the MA it is fair game so you just have to avoid it. I think avoiding HOs is easy too but in the DA it is a cheap shot.
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2015, 03:31:04 PM »
In the DA I try to avoid the face shots if my opponent isn't fond of them. If someone is going nose on purposely to avoid getting shot than, I'm greasing them. On the flip side I never fought a duel that wasn't in a friendly context, I like to keep thing mode light and fun.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 05:17:42 PM by glzsqd »
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Offline darkzking

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Re: 3 isn't enough...
« Reply #119 on: February 19, 2015, 05:14:52 PM »
Honestly in a Duel after the merge if u bring that nose to me expect me to plunge a 37mm round into it i've been in plenty of duels with players  who will bring their nose HO to avoid getting shot well guess what u wanna bring ur nose HO then expect lead in your face. Only time i complain about getting HOed is when there is a whole horde shooting at me and thats just out of frustation :bhead
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