Airbus A320

[Rich46yo]

Bigger picture question - is this whole notion of airline security so warped that it is now it's own worst enemy? What do you guys think?

I think in the 8 mins it took for that flight to come down more people were killed by car accidents in Europe alone. As sad an event as it was the media is mind screwing us to make it a bigger story then it is while the fact is death by airline pilot is so very rare your chances of getting dieing from snake bite or lightening is probably higher.

Airplane crashes, shark attacks, getting shot by a cop, anything racial, SELLS! and if it sells it will be on the front page until it stops selling. Stop being a bleating sheep and making it a bigger problem then it is. It almost NEVER happens even tho there are tens of thousands of commercial flights a day.

You have to keep the door secure so's that a bunch of lunatics cant get in and fly the plane into skyscrapers killing many thousands. Tomorrow aint promised to anyone so stop thinking everything is fixable.

[PR3D4TOR]

I would agree with you if it had been an accident. Mass murder tends to get peoples' attention.

[earl1937]

Earl, when Cat II and Cat III operations are in use the whole airport operates to an even higher standard than usual. In particular no vehicles or planes are allowed in the protected zone. They are "very" careful about inadvertent interference with the landing systems.

We train to  20' decision height, 100 metres visibility. Basically if the plane can handle it, it we let it do the job, if the little red light flashes, you push the levers up and get out of dodge.

You make a good point! My hat is off to you guys who can sit there to 20 feet and make a decision about continuing the landing. Maybe at one time my brain would react that quickly, but no way it would now.
One of the things which I enjoy the most in all the years I flew was instrument flying!
One of the things which amaze me today is the change in weather patterns. When I was instructing full time back in early 60's, we could plan a student pilot's cross country training flight a month in advance and be 99.9% sure weather would be no problem. Now days, its hard to say what the weather is going to be in 3 days, let alone a month down the road.
While it is true that weather forecasting is much more accurate today, it seems to be more violent these days than in the old days. Maybe its because as I got older, I either got more concerned about weather or grew a more healthy respect for it, don't know which.
I know things are a lot safer today than in the 40's, 50's and sixty's, but will have to admit, with nothing but a needle, ball, airspeed indicator and altimetry, and a "A" and a "N" in your ear, it was a lot more fun back then.

[Zimme83]

We are not talking fun, we are talking safety. No normal Human being would considered fun to push a button and let the plane do the job. But airline pilots are nothing else than bus drivers, more skilled but they do the same job. If u look at the good stories, Hudson river etc, u see that the really good airline pilots get their skills elsewere, ex fighter pilots or dedicated GA pilots. The biggest problem with airline pilots is that they don't learn how to fly. AF 447 is an example of that, they failed to do one of the most basic thing a pilot need to know because they were not aviators but rather system technicians.

I have experienced a lot of failures in GA aircraft, loss of airspeed indicator, electrical failures etc. but the plane are still flying perfectly, just fly the plane and u will be on ground safely most of the times in the event of failures.
That's how u get airliners safe. Let the system do the boring job of take the plane from A to B and have a skilled aviator that can take over when the system fails.

[Lusche]

I think in the 8 mins it took for that flight to come down more people were killed by car accidents in Europe alone.

We are not driving that bad. 

[Zimme83]

We are not driving that bad. 

 
10 points for that one.

[Rich46yo]

I was going to say 10 Germans. But I knew it would only cause me to spend time looking for proof to back up my claim.

As it turns out Europe, and Germany "whom is 20'th in world" are full of drunken bloody sots behind the wheel. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/alcohol/by-country/  http://www.dw.de/every-eleventh-car-accident-death-due-to-alcohol/a-17519689

[Puma44]

The biggest problem with airline pilots is that they don't learn how to fly.

Well, here's a huge B.S. flag.  EVERY airline pilot learned how to fly from hour one, just like EVERY GA pilot.  Since you are clearly not not an airline pilot, and clearly have limited flying experience, you are the guy that assumes some GA time and lots of home PC flying time makes you an expert.   Those AF guys you so quickly judge appear to have used poor judgement and panicked when they got into an unusual situation.  Poor judgement can be exercised by a low time pilot all the way to the most experienced airline pilot.   Your gross generalization and judgement about those whom you obviously have no knowledge or actual experience is immature and insulting.

[PR3D4TOR]

I think in the 8 mins it took for that flight to come down more people were killed by car accidents in Europe alone.

In the EU on average 76.7 people are killed in traffic each day (2012 statistics). So there's about a 83% chance that no one was killed in traffic in  the EU during the 8 minutes it took that flight to come down.

[715]

In the EU on average 76.7 people are killed in traffic each day (2012 statistics). So there's about a 83% chance that no one was killed in traffic in  the EU during the 8 minutes it took that flight to come down.

You never want to confuse people with actual true data.  Reality is not at all popular these days.  Gut feeling is much more important (and easy). 

[Puma44]

You never want to confuse people with actual true data.  Reality is not at all popular these days.  Gut feeling is much more important (and easy). 

So true!   

[colmbo]

Well, here's a huge B.S. flag.  EVERY airline pilot learned how to fly from hour one, just like EVERY GA pilot.

But there have been some glaring cases of airline pilots not performing basic piloting skills.  One case was a 747 that lost an engine, pilot flying was using aileron to correct for yaw not the rudder.

From my own experience some of the airline pilots we had flying the B-17 and B-24 just flat sucked.  I'm sure they were great flying within the IFR system but VFR there was some distinct lack of stick and rudder skills and it wasn't all just from not being familiar with the airplane.  That being said there were a few of the airline pilots that were awesome such as the guy that once did a deadstick night, IMC, NDB approach in a DC-3.

[Puma44]

But there have been some glaring cases of airline pilots not performing basic piloting skills.  One case was a 747 that lost an engine, pilot flying was using aileron to correct for yaw not the rudder.

From my own experience some of the airline pilots we had flying the B-17 and B-24 just flat sucked.  I'm sure they were great flying within the IFR system but VFR there was some distinct lack of stick and rudder skills and it wasn't all just from not being familiar with the airplane.  That being said there were a few of the airline pilots that were awesome such as the guy that once did a deadstick night, IMC, NDB approach in a DC-3.

Couldn't agree with you more.  But, categorizing all in one generalized statement, as was done below, is grossly uninformed and unfair.  In any category of pilots, there are going to be some who just meet the minimum standard and others who are always striving to improve their skillset. 

One case was a 747 that lost an engine, pilot flying was using aileron to correct for yaw not the rudder.

Yeah, anyone with real world multi-engine time knows that won't work out well for very long.  If they don't, it becomes obvious pretty quickly.  . 

[Karnak]

As to the AF incident, keep in mind that the captain recognized the problem instantly when the co-pilot finally informed the others that he had been holding the stick back the whole time, there just wasn't enough altitude left for a recovery at that point.  I have no doubt that if the captain had been flying the AF flight the only report would have been a note about the pitot tube icing over in the plane's file.

[Zimme83]

An 320 from Turkish airlines made a succecsful emergency landing after suffering severe structural failure on gear, flaps and right engine. Exact cause isnt known but from what i have found the damage occur during a landing attempt so probable cause is a very rough landing.


A plane spotter said:

The aircraft rolled right just before touchdown causing the right engine and wing to contact the runway and a hard touch down. The crew initiated a go-around, then declared emergency due to an engine (V2527) inoperative. The crew subsequently reported an unsafe gear indication. The aircraft positioned for an emergency landing on runway 35L, touched down about 20 minutes after the go around, but with the right main gear collapsed the aircraft skidded on its right engine, with sparks and smoke trailing the engine, and veered right off the runway spinning nearly 180 degrees.