Author Topic: The remarkable airplane that failed.  (Read 4721 times)

Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2015, 10:14:06 AM »
Airbus got orders for 13 A-380 last year.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2015, 01:24:04 PM »
Airbus got orders for 13 A-380 last year.

Can you post a link to that?
Quote
Airbus has won orders for 318 of the jumbos. That’s a fraction of the 1,200 it thought airlines needed in that size category when it started marketing in 2000. Emirates accounts for 40 percent of the order book, while airlines including Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd., Hong Kong Aviation and Air Austral are increasingly unlikely to ever take their planes.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-10/airbus-at-crossroads-as-a380-jumbo-faces-spendorfade-conundrum

Even if true the odds are low they are doing much more then giving the plane away at no profit. The other day I saw two A340's taxi'ing one after another. The odds are small even seeing one but seeing two, one after another, Ive never seen happen before. Anyway the A340 is my favorite AirBus. It was a great idea for its time before ANYONE ever saw 2 engines ever becoming so powerful or efficient. Today if you see a 4 engine aircraft it can be only one of three possibles. One of course is the 747. The other is the A380, which I assume you'll never mistake for another like the jumbo. But if you see a 4 engined Pass. airplane that isnt either then its this beauty.

I saw it being followed right behind by this one.


The 340 production line was shut down years ago and I see the end of the 747 and A380 coming. The new Queens of the air are the 777, 787, A350, and most of all the smaller regional and continental Jets. The 2 engined jets simply make much more money with fewer costs. And thats the bottom line.

Airbus will continue to be a major player. Every bit as good as Boeing if not better. But the A380 dream is dead, and its a damn pity cause they delivered everything they promised. It was the business that failed the airplane. Not the other way around.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2015, 03:30:34 PM »
From wiki:



Seems like 2014 was a better year than 2002, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2009, and 2012.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2015, 03:41:04 PM »
There are room for some confusion there. The order were announced in 2013 but were not made formally until 2014.
What can save the 380 is that the only plane that can replace a 380 is another 380. Not too far into the future the olders 380 will need replacement and atleast some of them will be replaced by new 380:s
The 747 on the other hand is too small to have any significant advantage over the largest twins like 777-300. The 380 have its size atleast to compete with.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2015, 03:59:37 PM »
Rich quoted from the article he linked to:

"Airbus has won orders for 318 of the jumbos. That’s a fraction of the 1,200 it thought airlines needed in that size category when it started marketing in 2000."

Let's analyze that quote: In 2000 Airbus thought there was a market for 1200 aircraft in the A380's size category. However it seems the author thinks Airbus should have a 100% market share. They don't. 318 A380's have been ordered so far, that 26.5% of the total market as estimated by Airbus in 2000. I.e. in one decade the A380 has taken a quarter of the Super Jumbo market away from Boeing, if that market is indeed 1200 planes.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2015, 04:48:47 PM »
317 A380:s have been order since 2001, in the same time 202 B-747 have been ordered. Since 2010 its 115-14 in favor for the 380 so it outsell the 747 by a large margin. But Airbus prob didnt counted with the financial crisis when they estimated the market for the 380.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2015, 04:56:07 PM »
Yes, but more than 1500 747s have been built and most are still flying. That's the market.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2015, 05:09:08 PM »
Its irrelevant.

Edit: What happen on the 70 and 80:s doesnt matter at all. A 747-100 has no similarities with a 380. A 747-100 is comparable to a A330 or B767 but with shorter range.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:15:56 PM by Zimme83 »
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2015, 05:27:27 PM »
Fact is that Boeing built a new version, the -8, and have orders for 51  +71 freighters, The 747-8 is a lot closer to be concidered a failure. 
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2015, 05:31:09 PM »
There aren't many 747-100 still flying. The majority of operational 747s are of the -200 -300 and -400 models. With a maximum capacity of 660 passengers and almost 700 units delivered the 747-400 is very much a A380 competitor. The A380 is Airbus' bid to compete against the 747.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2015, 06:55:35 PM »
And boeing built the 747-8 to meet the 380 and it failed to do so.
The 747-400 is in class with 340-600 and 777-300 and are therefor doomed just like the 340 because noone will fly a 4 engine plane when they can fly a 2 engine plane. And since the 777-300 is only marginaly smaller than a 747-8 Boeing killed the 747 all by themselves. The 380 is big enough to stand out from the rest.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2015, 07:46:28 PM »
You're missing the point. The A380 was designed to conquer the 747's market.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2015, 08:48:09 PM »
There are room for some confusion there. The order were announced in 2013 but were not made formally until 2014.
What can save the 380 is that the only plane that can replace a 380 is another 380. Not too far into the future the olders 380 will need replacement and atleast some of them will be replaced by new 380:s
The 747 on the other hand is too small to have any significant advantage over the largest twins like 777-300. The 380 have its size atleast to compete with.

The will only be replaced by 380s with new engines. And that will most likely be only new engines to the fleet of already existing 380s. "Ordering" an airplane and "selling" it are two different things. The 380 didnt win 26% of the jumbo market. It won 26% of its own market. The 747-8 only sold in its freight configuration while the 380 freight, or 380F, never even made it to the assembly lines. Even some of the finished, or almost finished 380s, are in trouble of at best being sold for a big loss as airlines are restructuring their plans or even canceling any further involvement in the program. http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/01/21/program-analysis-airbus-a380-struggles-but-a-business-case-exists-for-neo/

Quote
And boeing built the 747-8 to meet the 380 and it failed to do so.
The 747-400 is in class with 340-600 and 777-300 and are therefor doomed just like the 340 because noone will fly a 4 engine plane when they can fly a 2 engine plane. And since the 777-300 is only marginaly smaller than a 747-8 Boeing killed the 747 all by themselves. The 380 is big enough to stand out from the rest.

It doesnt matter how big the 380 is. In fact it turns out to be a hindrance. The only thing that matters is how much money can be made per seat on an airplane, and thats any airplane. The 380 is only profitable when its filled and it can only be filled in very few markets and Hubs. Also the size of the thing slows down airport operations which costs the airports and airlines even more money.
Quote
You're missing the point. The A380 was designed to conquer the 747's market.
As was the 777 and the A340. These are not small airplanes and both have more range then the 747, the 777 has a version that has the longest range in the industry. The bottom line is its not all that easy filling a 747 with 550 passengers, and the 380 only holds marginally more. So when your 550 seat airplane needs 400 passengers just to break even it makes an airline nervous ordering them. Most of all when your two engine wide body easily fills 350+ of its 400 seats and consistently makes you money and does it while costing you less entirely down the chain. From purchase, to gate fee's, to fuel costs, to maintenance.

The 380 was never really built to replace anything. No more then the 747 was. It was built to be an entirely new people mover that reflected the future of air travel which was thought to be moving more people from the same, or less, Hubs. The airplane has done everything it was designed to do unfortunately the market has let Air Bus down. They took a major gamble and lost, even if it the time it didnt really seem like a gamble and instead appeared to be sound planning.

Boeing hedged its bets on a slightly redesigned 747 which already had an assembly line open and had already made a ton of money. It didnt lose much on the 747-8 and was even able to sell some cargo versions. The 787 is already flying, its technical problems worked out, and is building and delivering 10 per month. Which is more then any twin aisle in History and by the end of the decade will be 14 per month. Over 1,000 have been firm ordered by over 60 different airlines. Im sure the A350 will be a success but its coming to the game late due to the A380.

And the only thing that "killed" the two Jumbo jets is the market itself.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline icepac

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2015, 10:48:50 PM »
Big mistake deleting the flight engineer from the 747.


Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2015, 11:02:41 PM »
The airplane has done everything it was designed to do unfortunately the market has let Air Bus down. They took a major gamble and lost, even if it the time it didnt really seem like a gamble and instead appeared to be sound planning.

Seems to me you think Airbus should have sold thousands of A380s by now. Boeing have sold 1,503 B747's of all models including freighters during the last half century since it was introduced. An average of about 30 per year.
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