Author Topic: Spin Training  (Read 1372 times)

Offline DaveBB

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 08:55:13 PM »
The chief test pilot of the Mig-25 was killed in a spin while turning onto final.  Fuel gauges were registering nearly 0 fuel while his aircraft in reality was fully fueled.  Turned with airspeed far too low.

Are jets more prone or less prone to spins than prop aircraft?  In the video of the catastrophic 747 flight out of Afghanistan, it can be seen beginning to spin.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 11:58:31 PM »
The chief test pilot of the Mig-25 was killed in a spin while turning onto final.  Fuel gauges were registering nearly 0 fuel while his aircraft in reality was fully fueled.  Turned with airspeed far too low.

Are jets more prone or less prone to spins than prop aircraft?  In the video of the catastrophic 747 flight out of Afghanistan, it can be seen beginning to spin.

Jets aren't more or less prone to spin, however swept wing aircraft and aircraft with airfoils designed for high speeds (transonic or supersonic) can have stall and spin characteristics that are very different from slower straight-wing aircraft.  Specifically, planes with swept wings may under some conditions enter a deep stall condition where much of the wing is stalled yet the plane "feels" like it is still flying.  Control effectiveness may be lost in varying degrees, and pitch authority may be lost to the point where the pilot can't force the nose down to decrease angle of attack to break the stall.  At that point any yaw or disruption in relative wind could snap the plane into a spin with little or no warning.  Also, spin characteristics may be dramatically different in high performance fighter aircraft because of how the center of gravity and center of pressure may swap relative positions when a certain angle of attack is exceeded.  This may make a plane statically and dynamically "stable" in the stalled or spinning condition, and there may not be enough control authority to get the plane out of the stall or spin.

Still, an airliner or even a large military transport is typically designed with more stability margin than that, even if the airfoil and aerodynamics are optimized for cruise efficiency or load carrying ability.  In the case of the 747 that crashed after takeoff in Afghanistan, the reports indicated there was a massive rearward shift of very heavy cargo which made the plane completely uncontrollable.   Build a flyable paper airplane and then attach about 20 paperclips to the tail, and see how well it flies... That's pretty much what happened to that 747.

The F-15E was initially more prone to spinning than the F-15A/B/C/D due to increased stabilator effectiveness at higher angles of attack and the LANTIRN pods being mounted ahead of the center of gravity.  The flight controls had to be modified to make it harder to get it to spin.  As a result the F-15E could be very aggressively maneuvered in conditions that would make an F-15C go out of control, because of the revised flight control laws.  A well-flown F-15C could pull off maneuvers impossible in an F-15E, but an F-15E could be flown on the edge at will, with almost no risk of spinning.  But once an F-15E entered a spin (it was still possible to get into one), it took just as long to get out of it as it did for an F-15C.  The fact that it was a jet fighter with conventional delta wing configuration didn't make it inherently more or less prone to spinning, and in fact it was a very forgiving plane to fly as long as you knew what it could and could not do and didn't force it into an out of control situation.

The T-37, another forgiving jet aircraft, was actually modified to make it more spinnable and harder to get out of a spin once one was entered.  This was deliberate, to force students to learn how to think under pressure and to make them learn how to apply specific procedures to get out of the spin.  This was originally done because of the fairly poor post-departure behavior of the fighter aircraft in use at the time the T-37 entered service.  Modern fighters recover from departures pretty much "hands off", and it shouldn't surprise anyone that the USAF's current primary trainer the T-6 recovers from spins by simply neutralizing the controls, which is not much different from a true "hands off" recovery procedure.  Still, the F-15 does have one departure mode called an "auto-roll" which is a fairly nasty departure if the pilot isn't prepared for it.  The recovery procedure from an auto-roll is very very specific, calling for smooth rudder input opposite of the roll direction and holding the stick slightly aft of neutral.  If this procedure isn't followed precisely, the plane can *snap* out of the roll into an extreme nose-down pitching moment, which results in about negative 6 G's, causing significant aircraft damage and potentially some injury to the crew.  The spin recovery procedure for the F-15 is also very specific, so much so that if the plane recognizes the spin, every display on the plane including the HUD changes mode to show spin recovery procedures.  It shows a large arrow showing the pilot what direction to put the control stick, and even tells the pilot to pull one engine to idle and put the other one into full military (non-afterburning) power.  The T-37 spin training was designed to prepare a fighter pilot for the unique specific recovery procedures.  The T-6 spin recovery is taught in the same way mentally as a "boldface" procedure to be learned and executed flawlessly without hesitation, however it isn't very difficult and is arguably not as good training for a pilot destined to fly some of the older aircraft in the inventory.

I preferred the T-37 to the T-6, because it was really hard to break the T-37 or lose control so badly that it became uncontrollable.  I could take a T-37 right to every single edge of the performance envelope with full confidence that I could hit every single edge and corner of that envelope without risking loss or damage to the aircraft.  In the T-6, hitting or crossing some of those same envelope boundaries can cause significant damage to the engine or plane, so even the instructors rarely get a good feel for how the plane flies at its limits.  It's just too risky to really learn the limits of the T-6, so instructors are positively discouraged from stepping outside the boundaries defined by syllabus maneuvers.  In the T-37 though, it was fair game for an instructor to go find out what would happen if a student made any particular error and flipped the plane outside of the performance envelope.  Really learning how to fly the plane at its limits made for safer and more effective instructors.  With the T-6, instructors have to intervene much sooner when a student deviates from specific maneuver performance parameters, so the student never gets to find out what happens when he pushes the plane too far.  A new USAF pilot today may be in a $100 million aircraft the first time he actually loses control without an instructor to intervene, which is kind of scary to think about in my opinion.  The chance to foul it up and regain control without instructor intervention has been eliminated from pilot training with the switch from the T-37 to the T-6.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:01:00 AM by eagl »
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2015, 08:36:38 PM »
:airplane: I am not up to date, so to speak, on what the FAA is now requiring in so far as how much training one has to have to have a private license, so I ask this question with some hesitation!
Should someone who aspires to be a private pilot and be licensed to carry people around with him in a airplane, be required to under go aircraft spin recovery methods?
I used to get chastised for making a private pilot applicant to demonstrate spin recovery on a exam ride. The FAA at that time did not require it on a private pilot exam, but I always thought it important in the sense of safety for the applicant and anyone who might ride with him.

I’m an old CFI and the FAA approach to spin training on GA aircraft was simple, if the pilot never stalled, the pilot couldn’t spin.  So I followed the guild lines presented to me and never did stall/spin training for anyone other then student CFI’s for whom spin training is mandatory .
But what I did do for every student pilot I ever instructed was to take them on a cross country that included a landing at a nearby glider park.  I took them up in a 232 and let them spin and spin and spin until they understood exactly what was happening and why.  You see, glider training includes spin recovery right from day one, hour one.  All gliders are certified for spins.
The FAA still has it’s head up it’s butt on spin training for powered pilots and I still put each student in a glider and spin them until it hurts.
But I’ve never lost a student to a stall spin  because when they fly with me, they don’t just learn about stalls and stall recovery, they learn how to get out of a spin, even if it’s inverted, on it’s back.
I also do spins at night on the night cross country. 
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2015, 12:30:22 AM »
I’m an old CFI ….I also do spins at night on the night cross country.

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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2015, 05:18:17 AM »
diddlytards! I was genuinely expecting gifs of milfs in sports bras on excercise bikes. Keep your airplane toejam in the airplanes and toejam forum!
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2015, 10:41:13 AM »
Stick full forward, neutral lateral, lock your harness
Rudder opposite turn needle

If no recovery:
Stick into turn needle
If engine stalls, both throttles smoothly to idle

Recovery indicated:
Controls neutralize
Recover at 17 units AOA, thrust as required

If flat spin is verified by flat attitude, increasing yaw rate, increasing eyeball–out g, and lack of pitch and roll rates:
Eject (RIO command eject)


Which airplane is this procedure for?
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2015, 11:44:54 AM »
I’m an old CFI and the FAA approach to spin training on GA aircraft was simple, if the pilot never stalled, the pilot couldn’t spin.  So I followed the guild lines presented to me and never did stall/spin training for anyone other then student CFI’s for whom spin training is mandatory .
But what I did do for every student pilot I ever instructed was to take them on a cross country that included a landing at a nearby glider park.  I took them up in a 232 and let them spin and spin and spin until they understood exactly what was happening and why.  You see, glider training includes spin recovery right from day one, hour one.  All gliders are certified for spins.
The FAA still has it’s head up it’s butt on spin training for powered pilots and I still put each student in a glider and spin them until it hurts.
But I’ve never lost a student to a stall spin  because when they fly with me, they don’t just learn about stalls and stall recovery, they learn how to get out of a spin, even if it’s inverted, on it’s back.
I also do spins at night on the night cross country.

A GA aircraft like a c172 is very hard to put into a spin and it not happening during cross county light. As i said most spins ouccur . when turning to final and pulling to hard on the stick. In those cases it ends bad no matter if u know how to recover from a spin or not. And sadly: If spin training were mandatory the training itself would kill more people than the unintended spins do now. So learning the GA pilots to recognize and avoid stalls before they occur is the safest way to handle it imo.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2015, 11:59:16 AM »
A GA aircraft like a c172 is very hard to put into a spin and it not happening during cross county light. As i said most spins ouccur . when turning to final and pulling to hard on the stick. In those cases it ends bad no matter if u know how to recover from a spin or not. And sadly: If spin training were mandatory the training itself would kill more people than the unintended spins do now. So learning the GA pilots to recognize and avoid stalls before they occur is the safest way to handle it imo.
:airplane: While I don't agree about spin in the 172, I do agree that most stall, spin accidents are caused by turns to final, or buzzing a friends house, or just plain being stupid at low altitudes. As a matter of practice, I only introduced private pilot trainee's to stall/spin, with full flaps and simulate turning to final from base. It doesn't take many sessions of this to impress on the student pilot the importance of maintaining flying speed at any altitude.
One thing I always stressed was making "standard" rate turns in the pattern! some people teach 30 degrees of bank on every turn, but my thinking was this was help them later, if they decided to get a instrument ticket to go with their private certificate.
Nothing wrong with exposing a student to "speed vs bank angle vs turn rate at a early stage of their training! The better educated pilot is a safer pilot in my view!
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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2015, 12:39:55 PM »


I honestly thought that this was the spin training you guys were talking about. Imagine my dismay when I clicked open this thread.

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2015, 01:33:54 PM »
A GA aircraft like a c172 is very hard to put into a spin and it not happening during cross county light. As i said most spins ouccur . when turning to final and pulling to hard on the stick. In those cases it ends bad no matter if u know how to recover from a spin or not. And sadly: If spin training were mandatory the training itself would kill more people than the unintended spins do now. So learning the GA pilots to recognize and avoid stalls before they occur is the safest way to handle it imo.

Here is just a couple 172 being spun, doesn't look that hard.   I disagree with your comment "very hard to put into a spin and it not happening during cross county",  no one ever flys into IMC and loses it, that never happens by you I'm guessing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWa6sCEAxvE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dSrjVR0MvE
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 01:40:36 PM by Traveler »
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2015, 01:43:59 PM »
Your point is...?

Of course u can spin w a 172, i just said its hard to put it in  a spin (ie u have to provoke it a lot). As they said in  the vid. "full rudder, full back pressure". It is not that just happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nm_hoHhbFo

This is a more typical stall/spinn accident.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2015, 04:23:31 PM »
I think people are missing the point, it's not really about just spin recovery. It never ceases to surprise me when people keep saying "no matter how much we warn pilots they continue to stall and spin in the landing pattern."  Well, no kidding.  Pilots do things every day they're told not to do because piloting isn't just an intellectual exercise, it's muscle memory and feel.  If it were just "intellectual" then we'd just take our written tests and off we go. Spin training reinforces what pilots are told by allowing them to experience and learn to feel the edge and the best way to learn the edge means occasionally exceeding it. I know no pilots who have never exceeded a limit, intentionally or not, because they became distracted or task focused or too aggressive.  It's the feeling of the controls, wing loading, slip, yaw and roll that tells the pilot they're close to the edge and then the development of muscle memory of what to do without relying simply on intellect (which goes into the crapper when things go wrong.)  How many people stall and then stop to think "ok, based on my airspeed indicator I've stalled now I must reduce my angle of attack so I'll move the stick forward to break the stall and add power." Anyone except a nugget?  No, of course not, you learn what it feels like and then react using the muscle memory you've developed in training and recover pretty much automatically.  This is the point to spin training, that and the fact it also promotes a pilot's confidence factor that he can really fly his plane.  If spin training is killing people then the spin training is faulty either due to technique, a structurally unsound plane, or a plane with bad spin characteristics. Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 04:26:21 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 05:01:55 PM »
Your point is...?
My point was and still is with your comment that it is hard to put a C172 into a spin.  Your comment on the CFI’s instruction of “full rudder, full back pressure”  is exactly  by the book how the FAA want’s stalls presented to a student.   
I agree with you that more stall and spins occur on the turn from base to final and they generally result in death, but so does the none instrument rated pilot that fly into IMC.
But  if you think a C172 will not roll over on it’s back in a crossed controlled stall,  well, you’re  just dead wrong.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 08:38:36 PM »
Add a bit of power and the 172 will snap upside down and then into the spin.

My primary instruction was in a C150 aerobat so we did everything it was supposed to do and a few things it shouldn't.

My instructor put me into crazy power on stalls cross controlled under the hood and then turned it over to me just as it snapped.

I think stuff like that should be required.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 08:40:33 PM by icepac »

Offline Traveler

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Re: Spin Training
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2015, 10:02:25 AM »
One last comment and then I’ll go away.  I still enjoy taking a student from zero hours logged through their private ticket.  But today I spend much of my time transitioning pilots up in equipment and sometimes riding along as insurance on some actual IFR, helping them with those first few baby steps after they get their instrument rating.   

I’m amazed at how much they have forgotten and lost in the way of basic airmanship skills.  Today’s aircraft availability at many of the good FBO’s and clubs in my area have more sophisticated panels then I had available to me in a B727-400 back in the day.

I have them file an IFR flight plan for a round robin and include in the comments Training flight, CFI onboard.  I remain dead silent in the right seat as they get the environment ready, request clearance   copy and read back . Program that autopilot/flight director ,   I just watch as they prepare for takeoff.  Off we go.

I watch their eager faces  as they make that initial contact with ATC and watch them switch on the autopilot just as we are about to penetrate IMC.  That’s  when I  fail the autopilot right after plunging into an overcast and it doesn’t take  very long that they are far behind the aircraft, lost with no idea what to do in actual IMC  on an IFR flight plan and less than 5 miles from the airport that they just departed from.

Depending on what they do next determines whether or not the flight continues.  If they can’t articulate a plan within 10 seconds, I take control and request a return to the airport.   Just to shame them I fly needle ball and airspeed with one VOR for the approach to our home base.   

Those that have the plan I allow to continue the round robin hand flying the aircraft  to our first stop and approach, We have lunch and I let them fly us back home using all their toys. 
You would be surprised with the number of guys that are IFR rated pilots that have no business in actual IMC. 

Today’s aircraft are truly automated wonders but if you plan to fly IFR you had better be able to take manual control at any time and fly an approach to minimums, if you can’t do that, you have no business in the airspace system and one day you are going to  kill yourself and anyone else on board.
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