Un-escorted bombers

[Traveler]

This is from the 8th Air Forces, it’s the stats of every mission flown in ETO , what the target was, how many aircraft, crashed, arrived on target, air loses , ect:

http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8thaf-missions.xls

It makes for interesting reading and review, it shows how poorly the initial missions were and how the lose rate was so high because the bombers were un-escorted.   Some of the losses were so bad that missions had to be canceled while they waited for replacements of aircraft and men.
So why is it that the un-escorted bombers in AH pretty much roam as they please and generally when engaged with fighters the result is far different from what actually happened?   

Shouldn’t the un-escorted bombers in AH suffer statistically the same fate as did the aircraft they were modeled after?
What’s different, could it be that the guns of the three bomber box in AH are linked where their counter part of WWII could not coordinate their defensive fire between aircraft in formation.  The best they could do was to coordinate fire between themselves on the same plane, but not plane to plane.
I’ve seen fighter  after fighter attacking a box of unescorted bombers only to be shot down  time after time.  There is something not right here.  Fighter against un-escorted bombers did much better in WWII then they do in AH.  What do you think?

[Delirium]

Comparing history to Aces High leads to nothing but frustration. That said;

1. Bombers tend to fly much higher than the majority of fighters in Aces High. This tends to put any attacking fighter in a tail chase against bomber gunners that are far more accurate in AH than they were historically.

2. Bombers tend to fly faster in AH than they did in large box formations historically. This limits the exposure to enemy intercepts and also promotes a tail chase.

What’s different, could it be that the guns of the three bomber box in AH are linked where their counter part of WWII could not coordinate their defensive fire between aircraft in formation.

That is true but is a good concession for playability for bomber sticks. I remember when they used to fly in singles rather than formations and one bomber pilot had trouble making an impact on anything but the ground.

[Lucifer]

"2. Bombers tend to fly faster in AH than they did in large box formations historically. This limits the exposure to enemy intercepts and also promotes a tail chase."


Man, TU2s diving 500MPH+ and staying in one piece...
HTC, wake up and do something plz 

[glzsqd]

Bombers are extremely vulnerable if you attack them in the correct manner.

[Lusche]

So why is it that the unescorted bombers in AH pretty much roam as they please and generally when engaged with fighters the result is far different from what actually happened? 

Not generally

In the past, when we had still numbers and more, bigger bomber raids, most missions that did fly deep into enemy territory without proper escorts had loss rates that let the 'real world' ones pale in comparison. I have seen countless raids under furious attack melting like a snowball in the Sahara.

If you would recreate a scaled down Schweinfurt raid at proper altitudes and historical cruising speeds, most probably no bomber would ever even reach the target. At more typical AH altitudes an speeds, a sizeable fraction would probably reach the target, but only a tiny one could ever expect to reach home.

Overall, AH combat is much more bloody and fatal both for bombers as well as attacking fighters alike.

[glzsqd]

Not generally

In the past, when we had still numbers and more, bigger bomber raids, most missions that did fly deep into enemy territory without proper escorts had loss rates that let the 'real world' ones pale in comparison. I have seen countless raids under furious attack melting like a snowball in the Sahara.

If you would recreate a scaled down Schweinfurt raid at proper altitudes and historical cruising speeds, most probably no bomber would ever even reach the target. At more typical AH altitudes an speeds, a sizeable fraction would probably reach the target, but only a tiny one could ever expect to reach home.

Overall, AH combat is much more bloody and fatal both for bombers as well as attacking fighters alike.

My deep penetration bomber raids rarely have any survivors, regardless of escort.      Them dam 163 swarms!!!!

[M1A1]

I fly bombers quite abit and my attrition rate has been well over the AVG of 10 % like they were suffering during that period in WWII. So seems rather realistic in that part. Bombers do fly faster in AH but that can also be said of any aircraft in the game due to not having to manually manage all engine functions. No plane flew at full throttle through whole mission so it seems to even out a bit...

[10thmd]

Laser accurate gunner positions also are a factor. Our gunners don't have to deal with recoil bouncing that .50cal around.

[Tumor]

Are suggesting realism be inserted into the game?  How dare you!

[hgtonyvi]

"2. Bombers tend to fly faster in AH than they did in large box formations historically. This limits the exposure to enemy intercepts and also promotes a tail chase."


Man, TU2s diving 500MPH+ and staying in one piece...
HTC, wake up and do something plz 

Yea thats really stupid, and they take off and still manage to gain speed quickly.

[Ack-Ack]

Throw in the fact that the majority of the players do not know how to properly intercept bombers in this game nor have the patience to set up a proper attack run.

[caldera]

My deep penetration bomber raids rarely have any survivors, regardless of escort.      Them dam 163 swarms!!!!

Maybe you never penetrated as deeply as you thought. 

[Muzzy]

Add to this the fact that slashing attacks designed to damage a buff and kill the crew are less effective in AH because the standard formations can't be broken up and picked off one by one, and the fact that coordinated attacks with large numbers of fighters are rare.

On the plus side, we do get aircraft that are arguably better at buff killing in game than the German birds are. I'll take a D 40 jug for buff killing over a Dora any day.

[hitech]

Shouldn’t the un-escorted bombers in AH suffer statistically the same fate as did the aircraft they were modeled after?

No.

HiTech

[bustr]

This Complaint makes the rounds every few years. And someone eventually posts the link below. The german tactics in the link work just the same in the game. But, you have to expend time getting setup in an attack position or know to ignore the bomber box and accept your own limitations of position.

As for all the rear guns slaved together. Just like back then, in the game it takes about 18 seconds to close to 100yds against our bombers in a tail chase. And just like in ww2, the german pilots died because all of the tail gunners cut them to pieces in those 18 seconds. Speed and high frontal or high beam attacks are what worked unless you had a 1000m stand off weapon. And then you already were a slow wallowing pig killed by the escorts.

Killing bombers was accomplished primarily by two things. Straffing the pilot deck or exploding the bombs. Otherwise that's just a bunch of empty aluminum space to shoot up with bodies to kill. Oh! and just like in our game, back then B24's had a penchant for catching on fire.

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm