Author Topic: What plane is this?  (Read 5059 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2015, 06:04:27 PM »
I never said it did, but I'm not half the hubristic egocentric you are. I'm not willing to accuse veterans of lying unless I have definite proof.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2015, 06:11:37 PM »
I never said it did, but I'm not half the hubristic egocentric you are. I'm not willing to accuse veterans of lying unless I have definite proof.

I never accused any veteran of lying.  There is a difference in mistaking a plane for something else in the midst of combat and intentionally telling a lie.  Maybe one day someone will teach you the difference.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2015, 06:12:08 PM »
I think Crumpp had returned using a new nick.

Ack, USAAF Mossies had their tail and rudder painted red to help with other USAAF pilots IDing the Mossie. It looked to much like a Me410.

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2015, 06:15:32 PM »
I never said it did, but I'm not half the hubristic egocentric you are. I'm not willing to accuse veterans of lying unless I have definite proof.

I don't think the Veteran was lying, its not even a case of "lying" - rather misidentification. For example, the Marine Airwing at Midway submitted their After Action Report; said the Zero was flying above 450mph, could absorb shells and turn circles around everything let alone dive away. The problem was none of it was true; the pilots were just in the heat of the moment. Problem was there was no information on the Zero yet, the pilots were all Green against Veteran pilots of the Japanese Navy. Does this make the pilots liars? Of course not. It is possible for a Zero to dive till 450mph, however its not turning on a dime then; however the pilots didn't know that. Tactics were not developed to combat the Zero yet In fact these pilots have not even faced the Japanese yet. This is why the Japanese Zero had "invisibility" tagged to its name for the first 6 months of the war, eventually pilots developed the necessary tactics, the Zero's "invisibility" status slowly faded away.

I've read plenty of accounts of pilots; from first encounters of Me-262's doing 750mph to Bf-110s firing "rocket propelled bombs into formations". There were cases of Fw-190s that dropped "Time delayed" fragmentation bombs on box formations of B-17s in order to break them up; however there were no such "rocket propelled" bombs shot into formations; rather a crew member of a bomber mis identified what he seen.

JG 52

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2015, 06:43:57 PM »
Not only that Butcher, many American pilots said they were in combat with A6M Zeroes when in fact it was Ki-43 Oscars.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 07:25:02 PM by MiloMorai »

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2015, 07:04:32 PM »
Not only that Butcher, many American pilots said they were in combat with A6M Zeroes when in fact it was Ki-42 Oscars.

When the Ki-61 started to arrive in the south-west Pacific area of the PTO, some Allied pilots misidentified it as a Bf 109 and in other cases as a C.202 in their AAR/debriefs.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9504
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2015, 07:48:16 PM »
When the Ki-61 started to arrive in the south-west Pacific area of the PTO, some Allied pilots misidentified it as a Bf 109 and in other cases as a C.202 in their AAR/debriefs.


Which is why it was given the code name "Tony."  Heck, everyone knew the Japanese could only copy other people's planes.

- oldman

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2015, 08:43:02 PM »

Which is why it was given the code name "Tony."  Heck, everyone knew the Japanese could only copy other people's planes.

- oldman

Interestingly the Japanese ignored proven designs - in tank building they ignored the Christie suspension, they were unimpressed with the American designs. The Japanese were interestingly the forefront of tank design in the mid 1930s - using Diesel tanks for example. By 1940 the Japanese had the 5th largest tank army in the world, if It wasn't for the shifting of industrial resources to aircrafts and ship building later in the war that slowed down tank building. Some people would argue; that Japanese "tank design sucked" and indeed it did; when you compare it to the 1940 designs. The reason is the Japanese had no need for "tanks" or as we call "Tank on tank" designs, rather they needed cruisers as the British developed in the early 1940s. The Chinese had no anti-tank guns, so tank design for the Japanese pretty much went towards what they assumed tanks were needed for; bunker busting and infantry support. If you look at the Russian Army in 1945, they basically adapted to what the Japanese were trying to produce in 1934.

That brings me to the Ki-61, the Japanese had no way to really copy the Bf-109's engine, instead they basically backwards engineered the engine and design to adapt to their own. The engine required precision machines to make it; something the Japanese industry lacked. In another words they were trying to produce something that was way out of their league to produce. It might of worked if the war progressed differently, but even simple Japanese maintenance was a little backwards; if one Ki-61 was damaged and two planes could be flyable with the spare parts from the one aircraft; the Mechanic was not allowed to salvage the parts off the damaged plane. That plane was from the Emperor - it was forbidden to use ingenuity, something most nations adapted during the war.

If you really want to know how bad japanese tank design became due to the shifting of industry in 1940; in 1945 the Japanese produced a "M4a2" killer; a prototype that never seen action with 3 inches of Armor and a 75mm main cannon. The prototype never went into action and actually was turned over to the united states because it had a 37mm cannon installed in the Hull; which any "armed" vehicle was taken after the war. It took the Japanese over 3 years to come up with a design to beat a simple Sherman tank.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 08:44:48 PM by Butcher »
JG 52

Offline FLOOB

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3058
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2015, 09:27:28 AM »
I'm not sure if it was one of the schweinfurt raids but a unit reported being attacked by he-100s or he-113s. I think it was a 303rd unit. Hows that for misidentification.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 09:35:27 AM by FLOOB »
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans” - John Steinbeck

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2015, 03:46:40 PM »
I'm not sure if it was one of the schweinfurt raids but a unit reported being attacked by he-100s or he-113s. I think it was a 303rd unit. Hows that for misidentification.

It is possible that the He 100s could have been the Heinkel's factory defense unit that was flown by Heinkel's test pilots.  At the time the He 100 was used (replacing the He 112) Allied bombers weren't venturing that far into Germany yet and there are no records of the unit ever seeing action.  However, there are also no records as to what happened to the small number of He 100's, so it is possible if any remained that it could have been pressed into service to fight off the Allied bomber attacks.

As for the He 113, well that would have been impossible for anyone to see in combat as it didn't exist and was only a propaganda invention by Goebbels.  Whether it was for Allied or German public consumption, Goebbels' started a propaganda campaign to show that Germany was getting a "new plane" and had some of the He 100s painted in different Luftwaffe unit colors and published the pictures in a German magazine.  Most likely the campaign was put on for both the Allies and the German public, to make the Allies worried about the new super plane and to raise German public morale.  It was a successful propaganda campaign too, the Allies bought it hook, line and sinker.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: What plane is this?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2015, 03:50:06 AM »
That brings me to the Ki-61, the Japanese had no way to really copy the Bf-109's engine, instead they basically backwards engineered the engine and design to adapt to their own.

Ha40 was a license built DB601. There was no "backwards engineering" involved. Japanese delegation went to Stuttgart, Germany and negotiated a licensing deal with Daimler-Benz, simple as that. Like with any licensing deal, they got the blueprints, documentation, etc. There was nothing to "backwards engineer". They simply tooled and adapted to produce BD601 and started producing them and gave it a designation Ha40.
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!