Anatomy of a 2v1 Engagement

[Muzzy]

Hi all,

The following is a breakdown of a 2v1 fight involving pembquit and myself against a zero that was very well flown by Hopper. The fight took place during Frame 3 of the Coral Sea FSO. At the onset of the engagement, Pemb and I are trying to drop the zero quickly in order to engage the B5N's below us. But Hopper is constantly evading our attacks and using his superior agility to set up shots. Neither of us are able to get a kill shot working on our own.


1. Realizing that we cannot get a shot working separately, I call for a drop to the deck. Pemb and I are now flying parallel to each other:



2. I decided to try and set the con up for the Thatch Weave. I break away from Pembquit in order to get some distance and force Hopper to pick a target:



3. Hopper takes the bait and comes after me. I break back towards Pembquit in order to set up a shot for him. So far, so good.:



4. But things start to unravel. Neither Pemb nor I have practiced the weave before, and although I know what we're trying to do, I haven't communicated it very well to my wingman. Pemb ends up flying in front of the con rather than timing the approach to get a crossing shot. Our timing is way off.



5. Again, because we haven't communicated well, instead of repeating the weave, Pemb turns back towards Hopper as the con breaks from me.



6. Realizing what has happened, I circle around and manage a deflection shot of my own, but it's not enough to bring him down.

[Muzzy]

7. But Hopper is a great stick, and he uses a barrel roll to evade me and gets on my six:



8. I drag him straight and Pembquit manages to get a firing solution:



9. Hopper turns off and Pemb pursues, but I have broken the wrong way and have fallen a bit behind:




10. Pembquit overshoots as well and it's my turn to clear his six:



11. But then I overshoot again and Hopper has a shot on me.



12. Lucky for me, Pembquit is able to finish him off. By now the B5N's are long gone and Hopper has done his job.

[Muzzy]

Analysis:

This is an example of really masterful flying on Hopper's part, and some sloppy teamwork on behalf of myself and Pembquit. It's important to note that at the time Pemb was also fighting his cat, who insisted on walking across the keyboard at various points in this battle.

From what I can discern, the takeaways from this are the need for better training and communication in order to perform the Weave correctly. It's essential that all pilots be on the same page so that when the lead calls for a specific maneuver everyone knows what to do. Had Pemb been briefed on the Thatch weave, he would have known to try for the crossing shot, and to turn back towards me rather than away. For my part, I could have conveyed my intentions more clearly in order that my wingman could understand what was going on. From an individual perspective, I should not have let myself get suckered by the BRD twice in a row. I clearly was not flying the Wildcat to its strengths.

There's also a lot to learn from Hopper in this engagement. He did not become target fixated on either one of us, had excellent SA in that he appeared to know where each of his opponents were at any given time, and he flew his bird to its strengths and against our weaknesses. He didn't try to stay on one of our six'es for too long just to get the shot, instead he broke off the minute he saw the wing angling for a shot. Often in a 2v1, the objective is not to gain a kill by staying on a single con, but to stay alive long enough until someone makes a big enough mistake, and to cash in on that mistake as quickly as possible. Likely the only reason he lost was because he didn't have the punching power to drop my Wildcat quickly. I certainly gave him plenty of opportunities.

On the positive side, it's apparent that even sloppy teamwork is better than no teamwork at all. Working independently we were not able to gain the advantage, but even with our flawed tactics, we managed to drop Hopper before he got one of us once we started working together. Lastly, sometimes in order to drop the con, it becomes necessary for one of the wingmen to offer up a shot and play the bait in order to secure the victory. Sometimes you have to trust that your wingman won't let you down, and conversely, you have to live up to the trust that your wingman places in you. Despite his problems, in the end Pemb came through when we needed it the most.

Comments? Suggestions? Questions?

[Oldman731]

Comments? Suggestions? Questions?

Very nice, Muzzy, and very well explained.

- oldman

[Soulyss]

Nicely done Muzzy, <S>!

[bozon]

Sometimes, the Wildcat is the one that walks across your keyboard in the middle of a fight.
 

  nice presentation Muzzy.

How to effectively drag a bandit and how to shoot a bandit off of your buddy is something that needs to be learned. There was once (probably 10 years ago) a good discussion on this very subject. Perhaps it is time that someone rewrites it.

[artik]

There is a great chapter called "Section Tactics, Two-versus-One", page 195, Fighter Combat TACTICS AND MANEUVERING by Robert L. Shaw.

An in general it is a great book to learn air combat.

I wouldn't Thatch Weave as my first choice of the tactics. Also when it developed it was good one taking in account that in general section cooperation tactics was very poor this days. (For example one of the best trained AF - IJN had flown without radio!)

The problem with Thatch Weave is that you have very little time to aim and hit. It worked well against "paper" zero but in general there are easier to use tactical maneuvers that can be applied against non-paper plane as well.

One of the simple ones is "sandwich"  when one brings the bogey to his partner. Once you see that this zero is committed to you, you bring it to your wingman's 6.

I remember I had written this little scratch for squadron training prior to War at Pacific scenario and we run various setups 2vs1 and 2vs2 at DA during several squadron training sessions.



One stuff I noticed that even if your wingman is less experienced in section tactics you can guide him like "start right turn now so I can clean you" or "I bring the bogey start right turn"

The good thing in bringing your wingman to bogey's 6 is that he has much better chances to kill him or at least to scare him off.

[The Fugitive]

I think even with players that you just suddenly find yourself winging with communication is the most important thing.

When I get into a fight like the above I look to work with my wingman. Who gets the kill is no longer important. If I'm dragging I'm on the radio saying which way I'm dragging so my wingman can cut the corner and get ahead, if I'm trailing Im calling out which way works better for me to get a shot. I hope my wingman works WITH me ( not all do).

In the fight above, it looks like you guys were fighting more of an energy fight than a turn fight. A friend from AW days, JBKID used to always say one guy is the turner, the other is an energy fighter in all wingman fights, no matter what type of plane your in. Meaning one guy would push the fight and be aggressive while the other maintained E and continually did more of a BnZ type attack.

This forces the bogie to concentration on the one attacking hard and often miss the attack of the BnZer that killed him.

[Zimme83]

Cannot help thinking about the whine storm that would occur if some guys took the time and effort to really learn how to fight as a team...

[Big Rat]

Cannot help thinking about the whine storm that would occur if some guys took the time and effort to really learn how to fight as a team...

Some guys do make the time and effort, but most of these fly in the MA's very seldom as a team.  FSO and scenarios is where you normally see the teamwork playout.

 
BigRat

[Muzzy]

I think even with players that you just suddenly find yourself winging with communication is the most important thing.

When I get into a fight like the above I look to work with my wingman. Who gets the kill is no longer important. If I'm dragging I'm on the radio saying which way I'm dragging so my wingman can cut the corner and get ahead, if I'm trailing Im calling out which way works better for me to get a shot. I hope my wingman works WITH me ( not all do).

In the fight above, it looks like you guys were fighting more of an energy fight than a turn fight. A friend from AW days, JBKID used to always say one guy is the turner, the other is an energy fighter in all wingman fights, no matter what type of plane your in. Meaning one guy would push the fight and be aggressive while the other maintained E and continually did more of a BnZ type attack.

This forces the bogie to concentration on the one attacking hard and often miss the attack of the BnZer that killed him.

Communication really is the most important aspect of wingman tactics, and admittedly, Pemb and I were not communicating very well at the onset of the fight, even though we were trying to co-ordinate our movements. At the above point in the engagement we began talking to each other more regularly, and even though there were still miscues, we became more effective. In retrospect, I really should have called out "Thatch Weave", because Pemb told me later he knew what it was. I never really said it on the comms. In truth, the weave wasn't our only option from that position.

Our squad has worked off and on with improving our wingman tactics as outlined in Shaw's book, and has had some success with them. Other than the weave, we could have tried a full split, where the wingmen break away from each other to force the con to engage one of them, or a half-split, where one of the pair breaks away. I was actually doing a half-split at the beginning in order to draw Hopper to me, but instead of cutting back towards Pembquit i could have continued my turn and had Pemb come in behind the con. It would have given him a trailing shot instead of the brief snapshot offered by the weave. To be honest, i was a bit caught up in the historical aspect of the combat (Coral Sea), which is why I called for the traditional tactics associated with Wildcats and Zeroes.

Other issues were in play when we made first contact with the zero. We weren't flying in close proximity to each other, which did not give us the opportunity for a coordinated merge against the zero. If we had been in proper formation, we could have executed any number of coordinated attacks (offensive split or half split, etc.) but instead we wound up engaging piecemeal. This was in part due to the fact that I was having trouble spotting the B5N's that were our main objective and had become distracted as to the position of my wingmen. I actually lost complete contact with our third (Badblood), and he ended up flying on his own for the entire fight.

With regards to general tactics, we normally would have tried the turn and burn/boom and zoom combo that you mentioned, and in fact we did make use of it somewhat during the fight. What made it particularly dangerous was the fact that both of us had difficulty hanging with Hopper in a knife fight, in part due to his skill as a pilot as well as the known advantages the zero has over the wildcat in such a situation. In the couple of instances where I was turning with Hopper, it wasn't long before he was able to get on my six, which forced me to dive away to save my skin. Pemb was also having trouble getting a shot on him at the same time.

One other thing the Arrows have discovered is that some of us are better suited to play the role of bait (or turn and burn) while the other looks for a pick opportunity. This can even vary depending on whom your are winging with. Flying with Pemb and Blkbaron, I usually prefer to tie up the con, while with Firebird I let him draw the con while I look for a shot. This is the kind of thing that only comes from repeated practice with each other.

[FLS]

In pictures 4 and 5 note pemquit's altitude and imagine him higher in 4, and behind the zeke with an alt advantage he could convert to speed in 5.

If you want to use the weave you would benefit from the flat scissors snap shot drill.

[pembquist]

Ok here's the perspective of the wingy. First, if your wingy doesn't almost ever fly wingman start with low expectations. I find it harder to figure out what my wingman is doing than I do what the opponent is up to. My mind only works in the kilohertz range and hasn't learned to pay any attention to what the green guy is doing. The "wingman tactics" of the MA have a lot of follow up the roped and descend on the poor bastard suckered into a lufbery...not terribly sophisticated. What I am saying can be condensed to "requires practice." I know conceptually what a Thatch Weave is but that doesn't cut the mustard or the cheese when it comes to performing it in virtual life. My bungled first turn was just a flat turn into the flight path of wingy and con, how is that going to work? Not a good learn on the job line of work. After the whiffle I revert to the basic stay fast to stay alive, turn to keep bogey maneuvering and interested but not enough to slow down, and assume that if wingy and yo both keep up our separation and laggy straighty maneuver the con will have to go back and forth and get tired and present shots. In the end this is sort of what happened except Muzzy was willing to put too much faith in my gunnery etc. and so the zeke got too hungry for his own good. I wish AH was endless special events, the flying is way more tense. In the MA the F4F is a turny full rudder flop over 5 gun package of dementia, in the Coral Sea its an energy fighter, I am terrible at anything but turning in inappropriate ways, the challenge for me is to keep track of my wingman and plan with his flightpath in mind, this is not old stuff. I would say again the key to good wingyness would be some practice with the basics of coordinated flying. The old standby of one keep fast and high and the other be a tease works but has built in riskies, in my conception of the Thatch weave the enemy can never really get a good shot and the Merican planes don't have to turn too hard, they are in essence forcing the enemy to fight wrong. I felt bad for blowing it but It seemed like if I wasn't going to get Muzzy killed I would have to revert to the only flying I know how to do and just try to shoot the bastage anyway I could, def not "wingman tactics" except in the loosest sense of "protect wingman or else."

[bozon]

Shaw's book is interesting and good for the general concept of things (I only read parts of it), but the MA works a little differently. Players are not disciplined military pilots, risk taking is a lot higher (there is no real danger to the player), and wingmen often fly mismatched planes of different performances.

From my experience, flexible rules of thumb work better that drills and well defined maneuvers. In Loose Deuce we use a lot of team work, but do not call "moves". Instead, we communicate the general situation and intentions, and most of us know the rules of thumb of working with a wingman. We also do not assign real wingman to each other, it is more of an ad-hoc situational thing, which is why we are "Loose Deuce".

I agree with what was mentioned above several times that communication is key. We use Team Speak for squadron communication because of the much better voice quality over the in-game voice. I think HTC can consider increasing the bandwidth for voice to improve its quality. Connection speeds these days can support it.

[Skyyr]

Honestly, what's outlined is not a thatch weave.

When you're setting up a weave, optimally, both pilots need to maintain an orientation so that when both aircraft (or elements) are on the same heading, they are line abreast (horizontally oriented next to each other). This allows either aircraft of the formation to achieve a six-oclock position of the wingman with a 90 degree turn of both aircraft. Additionally, both aircraft should be separated just at or outside the limits of gunnery laterally (700 - 1500yds), allowing enough room to remain outside their wingman's turn radius.

You'll notice that Muzzy turns away, while pemquit stayed straight (Muzzy turning was the first mistake, them pemquit staying straight was the second). This means that pemquit cannot adequately cover Muzzy, as Muzzy is effectively behind his wingman who is supposed to be covering his six. Both aircraft are the same and at max power, which means that any loss of distance between the two aircraft cannot be made up easily without the defender putting themselves into more of a disadvantaged position, which is exactly what happens.

When you remerge (point 3), it's still not a weave; it's simply one wingman performing defensive maneuvering with the other attempting to gain position on a merge. Pemquit blows a lot of E here, which given Hopper's position, should have actually won him the fight if he had properly taken advantage of it.

To enter a weave from that situation, Muzzy should have flown straight instead of breaking into pemquit. Does it put him in harms way? Yes, but that's the sacrifice required to allow your wingman back into position. A flat scissors, or a gentle rolling scissors would be appropriate, as long as the general aircraft heading is straight. Another alternative would have been to fly to the literal deck and pull Hopper below pemquit. This keeps the bandit on Muzzy's six (where you want him for a weave) while pulling the defensive aircraft (Muzzy) out in front of the wingman (pemquit).

The point of the weave is to make choosing a target an inherently disadvantaged choice. There's typically very little defensive or hard maneuvering; rather, the defense comes from the positioning of your wingman in relation to you, and therefore your enemy.

Anyways, good work - you guys are improving.