Author Topic: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate  (Read 3757 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2015, 09:23:19 PM »
I'm noticing a trend: If you have any recent combat experience at ALL, you wholeheartedly support maintaining the A-10, and think there is no real REPLACEMENT for the A-10. If you've never been closer to combat than the computer, or your role in the military is entirely about numbers and you've forgotten what combat was like, then you say can it. I wonder which side I have more faith in...
Heh.  Don't put all of us non-military guys in one corner.  I have no military background, but I think the A-10 should be maintained, or a suitable replacement developed.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2015, 09:43:03 PM »
I would say that military or not is not that relevant in the debate, history have shown that even military expert and high rank officers can be very biased to a certain opinion for a lot of reasons. First hand information is of course always valuable but it doesnt meen that a guy on the outside cant have an opinion just as valid.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2015, 01:32:22 AM »
If they can spend billions for a fleet of f-35's, they can crank a few bill to start making 21st century A-10's.

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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2015, 01:34:45 AM »
I'm curious, doesn't the A10 primarily load up with smart weapons?

That would make the main difference between it and any other bomb truck the 30mm and the ability to strafe targets.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2015, 01:35:41 AM »
I'd say let the professionals decide what's the best option. Not the politicians or public opinion.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2015, 01:44:39 AM »
Except that it wont work.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline guncrasher

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2015, 01:55:04 AM »
I'd say let the professionals decide what's the best option. Not the politicians or public opinion.

at the top of the line it is very hard tell to see the difference between a politician and a professional.  To get ahead you need to be a politician, just like in any other profession.



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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2015, 02:03:49 AM »
Ok, point taken. However, I'd defer the decision to the "military politicians" rather than the other kind.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2015, 02:06:16 AM »
Ok, point taken. However, I'd defer the decision to the "military politicians" rather than the other kind.

well they decided to kill the a10.  so let this thread rip.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline artik

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2015, 03:03:43 AM »
You know guys I'll rewrite this discussion in different more AH compatible terms.

A: The command wants to retire IL-2s! We can't let them do it... we need an armored, survivable aircraft that has great canon to hit the enemy armor. We on the ground respect it very much.

B: But you have Typhoons and P-47 Thunderbolts. They carry as much ammunition as IL-2 but they also can defend themselves. It is true that P-47 and Typhoons isn't as survivable but at least they can defend themselves. There are also Mosquitos that are very fast, dual engine and can do great damage.

A: But we on the ground know better what is the effect of the good anti-tank gun and how efficient this aircraft is.

B: But we have budget limitations we need to get rid of some stuff. There are aircraft that can replace IL-2 in different terms and they are as effective.

A: But they aren't flying tank and don't have a canon that can kill light armored vehicles or shoot tanks from behind.


I think now it is much more clear

Also IL-2 is very unpopular in AH, in reality it was one of the major combat aircraft in WW2 and other types of aircraft could perform its duties.



One more stuff I want to add to discussion. Keeping 50 airframes flying does not cost 1/4 of 200 airframes but much more. There huge infrastructure to keep, engines and aircraft workshops, training facilities, overhull facilities and much more. It takes much more to keep aircraft flying than putting it in a hangar with few technicians.

It is significant consideration - much more than airframe durability.

I remember when IAF had to do significant budget cuts. What was done? AH-1 cobras and F-16A/Bs were retired. It is much cost effective with less damaging to capabilities to retire an aircraft type rather than lets say reduce flight hours generally or reduce number of aircraft in service keeping similar types flying.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Butcher

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2015, 07:11:55 AM »
I'd say let the professionals decide what's the best option. Not the politicians or public opinion.

It doesn't work that way either; the Air Force professionals decided that a gun was "useless" in modern day fighters; I cite the F-4 Phantom as an example, I'm betting the same argument goes towards the A-10 right now, the professionals want to see it "retired" in favor of "advanced" newer aircraft..

Do we really need the F-35 in the long run? Perhaps... but right now were doing just fine without it.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2015, 07:13:45 AM »
I'd say let the professionals decide what's the best option. Not the politicians or public opinion.

Over the past 50 years, DoD and USAF brass has made many very bad decisions per procurement and concepts. Why would anyone expect better judgment now?

Missiles only fighters.
Speed over all else.
F-111 as a joint service fighter.
Nuclear weapons delivery as a fighter requirement.
Resisting the A-10.
Having to buy Naval aircraft designs to meet mission needs (A-1, F-4, A-7).
F-35.
And on and on.....

Experience shows that the DoD can't be trusted to anticipate future needs without oversight.
My regards,

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #87 on: July 01, 2015, 07:19:54 AM »
Oversight by whom? To my knowledge the DoD is the civilian oversight and the direct cause of many blunders like Robert McNamara's F-111. Who's judgement should carry more weight?
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Offline Widewing

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2015, 09:00:33 AM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 02:56:57 PM by Skuzzy »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: McCain weighs in on the A-10 debate
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2015, 09:30:50 AM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 02:57:09 PM by Skuzzy »
No gods or kings. Only Predator.