Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public

[Zimme83]

It is not an invicible ghost plane at any time.

[PR3D4TOR]

According to the USAF the F-35 stealthiness is slightly better than the B-2 bomber, which is twice as good as the F-117. It has the radar cross section half that of a small bird. Not as good as the F-22 though which has an RCS the size of a marble.

[Zimme83]

Its hard to detect yes. But its not a huge advantage, even "non stealth" fighters like the Europeans have a lot of rcs reducing features too. A Gripen for ex has a rcs of a bird. Its bigger than a fully dedicated stealth fighter but togheter with ECM it still be hard to detect.

[PR3D4TOR]

The frontal RCS of the Gripen isn't bad at about 0.5 meters squared (one tenth that of an F-16), but the F-35's RCS is 0.005 meters squared. F-22 is 0.0001 m2. The Gripens PS-05/A radar is capable of detecting targets with an RCS of 5 m2 (typical non stealth fighter) at a distance of 120 kilometers. That translates to 80 kilometers against a 1 m2 target. 53 km against a 0.2 m2 target. 35 km against a 0.04 m2 target. 23 km against a 0.008 m2 target. 14 km against a 0,001 m2 target

So lets say the Gripen can detect an F-35 at about 20 kilometers range. That's IR missile range.

However, detection is one thing. Tracking such a small target is much more difficult. So while sporadic detection is possible, keeping a radar lock for missiles long enough to make an interception is doubtful.

For comparison the Gripen's radar can detect another Gripen head-on at around 65-70 kilometers. BVR range.

[Zimme83]

A Gripen will not fly and chase fighters with its radar, thats not how its intended to fight.
Present Gripen radar is not state-of-the-art, however atleast SwAF will have their E/F versions years before the F-35 is operational in sufficient numbers so its a non issue.

Im not convinced by your arguments, What u are saying is that the F-35 is a bomber with secondary fighter capability and that the pretty much only tactic in the book is the Hail Mary, firing AAM from very long range and then run for it.
It will be meassures to detect and defeat the F-35 soon enough to be an issue and pretty much arguments are that it doesnt matter that the F-35 have trouble in close range fighting because it will not be any. That is an extremley dangerous way of thinking.

I dont want the F-35 to be a failure, as the main NATO fighter project its a must that the plane can do everything that they promisse. But its worrying that the leaked reports about its flaws is met with arguments like "it have so good sensors that it will not need to dogfight so it doesnt matter that it cant".

[PR3D4TOR]

America is moving away from the traditional IR missile, radar BVR missile, and air to mud missiles. Currently in development is a missile that will replace all US A2A missiles and it will also have A2G capabilities. Known as the T3 (Triple Target Terminator) it will be a multi-guidance (including GPS, radar, imaging infrared/multispectral, and/or laser guidance), multi-role smart weapon. It won't see the light of day for a long time, so for now the USAF and USN will have to make due with the AMRAAM and AIM-9X.

[Zimme83]

It is still a dangerous approach as there are no backup plan if its turns out it doesnt work.
And its not about the US, a lot of European countries will rely on F-35 as their only fighter and they dont have the strategic depth that they can be sure that they can meet the enemy on their own terms in BVR fights.

[PR3D4TOR]

I'm not sure if you're current on the development of the AMRAAM missile. It has come a long way since the A/B/C models of the 1990's Gulf War and Kosovo conflicts. They had max ranges of around 60 kilometers. The current production model the AIM-120D has a range of 180+ kilometers (presumably against large non-maneuvering targets). That's longer than the AIM-54 Phoenix missile the F-14 used to carry.

[Zimme83]

i know. But it still not an advantage for the F-35 as there are missiles with similar or better range out there. Meteor has a maximum range of up to 300km for example. Im no expert on Russian and Chinese missiles but I suspect they are working with having missiles atleast equal to AMRAAM.

But still, its foolish to believe that the AMRAAMS the F-35 can take internally in order to stay stealthy will save it in any possible scenario.

[PR3D4TOR]

Any possible scenario... No, of course not.

[Zimme83]

Any possible scenario... No, of course not.

But thats how the argument goes, that its no problem if the F-35 is beaten in a dog fight because it wont have to dog fight anyway. That is a cause of concern imo.

[PR3D4TOR]

If any of you can spare the time, consider for a moment the following short story I had the notion of writing last night. (And please don't be offended by the obvious caricatures.) Best read while mildly intoxicated, and to appropriate music. The way it was written... So I cannot be held responsible for any gross misspellings, grammatical errors or general silliness!

...

ICEMAN'S WAR
by PR3D4TOR

It's 2027 and America is yet again going to war. This time against the terrorist kingdom of Ushyallahstan. In addition to supporting various terrorist groups around the world, they've been real uppity in the UN lately about their peaceful nuclear program and refuse to sell their oil at reasonable prices.





Off the Ushyallahstan coast the USS George H.W. Bush launches most of its F-35 fleet to go bomb the terrorists' homes, infrastructure and other military targets, alongside US Air Force F-22s and other F-35s operating from airbases in neighboring Lapdoghistan.

In Ushyallahstan a squadron of F-16Es are preparing to take off on a daring mission. The American made ex-Egyptian multirole fighters are formidable war machines despite being of yesteryears design. Even more so after the Indian "Super Viper" upgrades they underwent last year.

While the rest of his air force is being slaughtered trying to defend cities, Colonel Akir Nakesh sends his last remaining squadron on a revenge mission against the USN carrier taskforce. Eight Super Vipers each carrying a maximum load of fuel, two anti-ship missiles, two AMRAAMs and two dogfight missiles (that are actually very good despite being French) takes off from Saddam Hussein Memorial Airport and heads out to sea...





"Darn!" ... The E-2D radar operator swears in a Southern drawl over the intercom as his display suddenly reveal eight unidentified bogeys heading straight for the task force. The Ushyallahstanis had circled around the taskforce, using their AN/ALQ-218s to triangulate the task force's EM emissions, and were now flying below the horizon in a classic anti-ship "pop-up" attack run from the north.

Unfortunately, "Iceman" is the only F-35 on BARCAP in that sector because "Maverick" had left to do his own thing, again. Futilely the radar operator hits a button signaling the "Alert 5" F-35s to launch from USS George H.W. Bush, knowing they will be too late to prevent the bogeys from getting to ASM launch range. It will be up to "Iceman" to save the day or die trying.

The lone F-35 carries the standard BARCAP loadout of twelve AMRAAMs and a pair of AIM-9X and still has half a tank of gas left after loitering for two hours 150 miles out from the carrier. This was fortunate because the E-2D had just given him orders via data link, complete with a continuously updating radar picture from the E-2D's radar, to intercept, identify and prosecute eight incoming bogeys. With the Sun setting over the East African coast turning the sky blood red "Iceman" bites his lower lip, turns his F-35 onto the intercept vector and opens the throttle to full military power...






"Now!" ... Colonel Nakesh yells into his helmet mike and his squadron all light their afterburners and point their noses skyward. He had been monitoring the E-2's radar signals for the past 15 minutes and determined that by now the Americans must have picked up his flight on radar. His eight Super Vipers scream up in a zoom climb punching through the low cloud cover, afterburners lighting up the surrounding water vapor like God rays. They level out at fifteen thousand feet and turn on their own AESA radars and ECM while spreading out to cover a larger swath of airspace.  No reason to hide anymore.





The Colonel's AESA radar scans the horizon for two seconds and... "There!" ... 220 nautical miles out a huge surface contact and several smaller ships are picked up by the radar. It can only be the American task force, and his chance for revenge at last. But suddenly another contact registers on the display. 53 miles out is a single airborne contact flying at high subsonic speed heading directly towards him. "El-Sheitan Alaykom!" ... Colonel Nakesh' swearing goes on uncommented by his wingmen...






The E-2D had lost contact with the bogeys due to interference from their ECM. But, no matter, because "Iceman" had them all painted on his own AESA radar at 50 miles and closing fast. The F-35's sensor fusion system takes the target information from the AN/APG-81 active electronically scanned array radar and fuses it with the infrared imagery from the AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System. The sensor fusion system compares the information to its recognition database and identifies the bogeys as F-16s. Displaying the enemy aircraft as hostile icons on "Iceman's" helmet mounted display along with all relevant data after IFF interrogation went unanswered. "Iceman" looks at the zoomed image of the lead F-16. They're Ushyallahstani all right. He ticks off the checkbox for "visual ID confirmed" transmitting it to everyone in the data link network. The range is dropping fast on the target brackets. 42 miles...






Meanwhile Nakesh had been considering his options and he'll be damned if he was going to let a single American devil stand in the way of his revenge! - "Take him!" he commands over the radio in a calm but determined voice. As radio confirmations flood his headset Colonel Nakesh watch the brilliant flares of multiple ATK WPU-6B rocket motors streaking out from the formation. Momentarily closing his eyes he stabs his gloved thumb hard down on the firing button, launching his own AMRAAM at the infidel...





"Incoming missiles, 12 o'clock" squeaking "Betty" announces in her all business, no nonsense voice. "Iceman" watches as more icons appear in his field of view with blinking warning exclamations and time to impact estimates. The incoming missiles had been picked up by the DAS despite them flying with radars silent in the mid-course phase of their attack. The F-35 holding them all in its cold, lifeless six-eyed gaze.

"Iceman" had been holding his fire to give his AMRAAMs a better PK - probability of kill, in case the F-16s changed their minds and ran for it. Even with his formidable missile load he was facing eight hostile fighters and every shot had to count.

28 miles from the bandits, twelve seconds to missile impact, "Iceman" firmly squeeze the trigger releasing "Betty" to execute the pre-planned attack. In the space of 4 seconds the AMRAAM missiles on the wing pylons launch one after the other in rapid succession. Eight AMRAAMs arc across the sky like javelins from a battle long forgotten. 8 seconds to missile impact.

A fraction of a second after the last AMRAAM left the rails "Betty" jettisons the spent wing pylon launchers along with the two remaining Sidewinders. "Iceman" is willing to forgo their future use in return for making his F-35 stealthy. A sudden jolt shoots through the F-35's airframe as explosive bolts blow the pylons away. A startled "Iceman" pulls his F-35 into a sharp climbing left-hand turn and punches out a couple of chaff canisters...






Colonel Nakesh watches the radar display on his left MFD as the missile icon switch to indicate the AMRAAM is active and locked on the target. Five seconds to interception. The American is diving steeply to avoid the missiles, a defensive tactic that could work on older semi-active radar missiles, but Nakesh is confident his missiles will do the job right. After all, they're made in America! The corners of his mouth curl up in an evil smirk at the irony. Moments later a series of sharp flashes brighten the clouds below like lightning in a thunderstorm. The missiles found their target.

Momentarily distracted by the fireworks display below the Colonel's attention is once again drawn to his MFD as subtle bleeping sounds announce the detection of new contacts. His AESA radar has just picked up "Iceman's" AMRAAMs at 7 miles, screaming towards Nakesh's flight with a closing speed of more than Mach 5. The Colonel's expertly trained mind races through all the possible implications and courses of action available to him. It takes him three seconds to grasp the situation and make a decision. "Dash west! Dash west! Expedite!!!" He fails to conceal the borderline panic in his voice and is struck by a sudden feeling of shame. His wingmen acknowledge the urgent command in their own nervous voices. 

[PR3D4TOR]

The squadron turns hard towards Africa in apparent disarray, Colonel Nakesh can only hope he's made the right choice. His RWR remains silent so the AMRAAMs have not activated yet and are flying blind without mid-course guidance from the dead American. If he could only get his squadron out of their path quickly enough...


On an almost parallel course 20 miles south "Iceman" watches as his missiles curve westward. His AESA radar no longer has the hostiles in its detection cone, but missile guidance has been seamlessly handed over to the DAS optical sensors. Its predatory IR vision tracking all the bandits and the missiles hunting them, with the cold calculating precision only a machine can master. With an almost emotionless gaze "Iceman" watches his missiles converge with the targets, now maneuvering frantically and trailing streams of chaff. One bandit is even popping flares which are briefly bracketed as contacts before the sensor fusion system disregards them.

Four fiery blossoms erupt in the night sky followed by trails of fire arcing down towards the sea, their violent beauty only rivaled by the African sunset up ahead. Half of Colonel Nakesh's squadron had just died, but the only thing "Iceman" could think was "only four..." His chances of winning this battle had just dropped dramatically.






"Thank God for the bootleg Israeli ECM software upgrades" the Colonel said softly. The American had reached out of his watery grave and murdered half his men, but all was not lost. The airspace was now clear between the American carrier and his revenge! His AESA radar picked up two new aircraft coming at him from the carrier but they were hopelessly out of range to stop him. "Form up! Push on to the target!"

The four remaining bandits returned to their previous course towards the task force, and "Iceman" watched as they assembled into a loose line abreast formation. The bandits were once again pushing hard towards ASM launch range. Thankful that his deception had worked "Iceman" kept heading west towards the coast of Africa to keep his distance and stealth, slowly banking north to keep his engine fan blades hidden from enemy radars.

The enemy AESA radars were too discrete to be picked up by RWR at this range, even by the latest American gear, but "Iceman" figures he would soon be outside their detection cones. As he increases his angle of bank and starts turning into the enemy formation he prepares to expend his last four AMRAAMs. "God help me" he whispers as if the enemy somehow might hear him and detect his presence. Thousands of American lives could be riding on him making this shot...






The was no prior warning this time. Colonel Nakesh flinches as his RWR screams a warning of impending doom. "What? What's this?!" The Colonel could not believe his senses. A missile had come out of nowhere and is actively tracking him. Having no time to bark out orders he instinctively rolls his Super Viper onto its back and dives under the incoming threat, while releasing his last chaff canisters in a long stream of metal confetti. It was the same maneuver the American had tried in his dying moments, but this time the irony fails to amuse him. His eyes widen in sudden understanding and he finally realizes the horrible truth... It's him! The American devil is still alive!

The night sky blooms in blinding white light as forty pounds of high explosives detonate in the chaff cloud behind Nakesh. The Viper heaves and bucks from the supersonic shock wave and the Colonel winces in his seat at the sickening sound of shrapnel tearing through his aircraft. Nakesh grabs the ejection seat handle between his legs while the Master Alarm blares a warning drawing his eyes to the warning lights. For a moment he can't believe his luck. Only a couple of secondary systems have been knocked out. His helmet display and HUD were nonfunctional, but he had backup instruments and his MFDs were still working. No fire, his engine and radar still functional. His Super Viper still controllable and his ASM missiles still on their rails. "Allahu Ackbar!" God had saved him! God had given him another chance!

Throttling back the Colonel starts to pull out of the dive and calls out to his wingmen to report in, but he is answered only with silence. His heart sinks when he spots the three columns of fire following him down through the clouds. For a second or two he entertains the thought of going after the American who had murdered his men like a cowardly assassin, but shrugs it off. God had spared him despite his mistakes. God had spared him and his ASMs for a reason!

The American devil had spent all his missiles. Nakesh was no card player but even he could count to twelve. The devil could no longer stop him from completing his mission. He doesn't have the speed. Filled with renewed determination the Colonel punches off his external fuel tanks and relights his afterburner. Paradise awaits this holy warrior...






"Iceman" observes his missiles hit all four targets and sighs audibly inside his half-million-Dollar piece of headgear. However, his relief turns to anxiety when one of the bandits doesn't flame-ball but pulls out of his dive and continues to charge towards the task force. This is what he had been afraid of, but at least there was just one left he thought quietly. Even if he screwed this up the task force CIWS systems would in all likelihood deal with the two - four at most stealth ASMs that F-16 could be carrying. Though it was not a chance "Iceman" was prepared to accept.

"Mach 1.5" the airspeed indicator reads on the left side of his helmet mounted display. Throwing caution out the canopy "Iceman" had charged in after his missiles and was now 6 miles off the remaining bandit's right wing, closing fast in a lead pursuit. He had switched off his AESA radar in fear of alerting the enemy RWR to his presence, relying solely on the DAS optical sensors. The enemy F-16 was now accelerating fast and climbing, but "Iceman" had enough speed and altitude to overtake the bandit in a shallow dive.

The F-35 was not ideally suited for a gunfight against an agile opponent like the F-16, and he might not even get that chance. If the Viper had modern dogfight missiles its pilot could swat him out of the sky with a quick glance over the shoulder. "If he knew where to look..." he whispered to himself. In any case "Cougar" and "Merlin" were on their way and he only needed to delay the enemy for a few minutes. "A few minutes" he thought with a wry smile. Might as well be a lifetime.



Colonel Nakesh's eyes were fixed on the radar display. The American carrier had turned south and is moving at flank speed. Her escorts were forming a defensive barrier behind her, but it wouldn't matter. The Naval Strike Missiles his country had bought from Pakistan were for all intents and purposes invisible and undefeatable. They wouldn't do massive damage to a ship that size, but perhaps force the infidels to suspend flight operations for some time. It wouldn't be the victory he had hoped for, but it would be his country's only victory in this war and at this point he would take any victory he could get.

Both ASMs were heated up and ready. Target data has been transferred and all that remains is to wait a few more seconds for the range to close to 180 nautical miles. "175" he corrects himself. He must make allowances for the carrier's cowardly retreat. The two American fighters that are coming at him head-on will be in AMRAAM range by the time he can launch his ASMs, but no matter. He will gladly join his brothers in Paradise if only he can get to send those ASMs on their way first.

It is at this exact point in time, with the thoughts of Paradise fresh in his mind, that he notices the strange yellowish glare dancing and refracting through his canopy. Shocked his head snaps up and to his right, just in time to see what appears to be an angry swarm of fireflies descending upon him. The Nammo 25 mm APEX rounds rip into the F-16E, and as his aircraft disintegrates around him Colonel Akir Nakesh has one last brief moment to contemplate how completely he has failed his men, his country, and God.

[Zimme83]

That is a completley irrelevant made up story that can be written so it ends in any way any one wants it to end. Why not having an engine failure on the F-35 in a critical moment?

[PR3D4TOR]

You write that story...