Author Topic: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public  (Read 13310 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #105 on: July 08, 2015, 02:52:22 PM »
Logic is not that simple Artik.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:13:00 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #106 on: July 08, 2015, 03:32:40 PM »
The issue is the F-35's inferior "energy maneuverability", which includes far more than a turning contest. The F-16 wins in sustained turn and in the vertical and does so with relative ease. The F-35 appears to burn of E like crazy, whereas the Viper doesn't.

Above 15k on up, the F-15 can handle the Viper. In a lower speed scrum, the Super Hornet is more maneuverable than either. The F-22 owns all of them. The F-35 is owned by all of them.

A 21st century A-7...
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #107 on: July 08, 2015, 03:36:16 PM »
No... we don't. The USAF doesn't even know yet.

In other words, they know it sucks, but don't know yet if it will pull a perfect vacuum...
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Widewing

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #108 on: July 08, 2015, 03:58:43 PM »
From the article I posted earlier in this thread by a Viper and Hornet pilot. I'll take his judgement over anyone here.

"To me, it sounds like a Hornet fighting a Viper. Of course, a Hornet is not going to do well against an F-16 in a sustained rate fight. Its strength is to get slow and use its angle of attack advantage, much like the F-35 did here. It also bleeds energy rapidly and struggles to get it back once bled down. The fact the heavier, drag-encumbered F-35 had this problem is not surprising to me–despite its monstrous amount of available thrust, and it doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things.

As for the helmet problem, I’m sure that’s an ergonomics issue that will be worked out in testing. It’s not “sneaking up” on anyone; the TTL driver likely went blind during the engagement. As they say, “Lose sight, lose the fight.”

This aircraft is still in its infancy. Tactics, techniques, and procedures that key on strengths and minimize weaknesses are just starting to be developed. Taking one report and proclaiming that the F-35 is a piece of FOD in the air-to-air arena is irresponsible and sensationalist at best. There are far too many other factors to look at."
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #109 on: July 08, 2015, 04:26:06 PM »
From the article I posted earlier in this thread by a Viper and Hornet pilot. I'll take his judgement over anyone here.

"To me, it sounds like a Hornet fighting a Viper. Of course, a Hornet is not going to do well against an F-16 in a sustained rate fight. Its strength is to get slow and use its angle of attack advantage, much like the F-35 did here. It also bleeds energy rapidly and struggles to get it back once bled down. The fact the heavier, drag-encumbered F-35 had this problem is not surprising to me–despite its monstrous amount of available thrust, and it doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things.

As for the helmet problem, I’m sure that’s an ergonomics issue that will be worked out in testing. It’s not “sneaking up” on anyone; the TTL driver likely went blind during the engagement. As they say, “Lose sight, lose the fight.”

This aircraft is still in its infancy. Tactics, techniques, and procedures that key on strengths and minimize weaknesses are just starting to be developed. Taking one report and proclaiming that the F-35 is a piece of FOD in the air-to-air arena is irresponsible and sensationalist at best. There are far too many other factors to look at."

Sounds very much like the DoD's argument when they tried to force this down the Navy's throat as a fighter....

My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Nath[BDP]

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #110 on: July 08, 2015, 04:55:25 PM »
at least thats sexy
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Offline Squire

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #111 on: July 08, 2015, 07:20:39 PM »
Quote
I find it exceedingly hard to take you seriously as there is no way you can know exactly what the F-35 is capable of doing.

Well we have decided to debate it despite not having classified info on the a/c and you are here with us...so welcome aboard and observe the no smoking sign and fasten your seatbelt. 







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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #112 on: July 09, 2015, 04:11:57 AM »
True, except that I have not made any claims as to what the F-35 can or cannot do beyond what has been officially published... With so little actual data available doing so would, as C.W. Lemoine says, be irresponsible and sensationalist at best.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #113 on: July 09, 2015, 07:36:46 AM »
Problem is that if it really sucks u wont hear it officially from LM or anyone near the project. they are going to insist that they have build the best fighter ever and all issuses is "going to be sorted out along the way".
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #114 on: July 09, 2015, 07:47:00 AM »
That's a conspiracy theory. And if you think the whole US military is in on it too that must be the biggest conspiracy theory in history.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #115 on: July 09, 2015, 08:13:20 AM »
People who are not familiar with the corporate culture often fall for conspiracy theories like that. Microsoft has hidden "back doors" in Windows and Google is secretly taking pictures of you etc. What these people do not understand is that a company officer and the company itself survive on one thing: Reputation. That's a major reason why the markets can be so volatile at times.

A company can be vague, evasive and even refuse to comment, but it can never lie. If a lie is found out, and most lies are, the company's reputation will be ruined along with its business. Take Microsoft for example: If they actually had hidden back doors in Windows how long would it take before some white hat hacker found out and blew the whistle? What corporation or private citizen (all of whom have their own secrets and privacy to protect) in their right mind would use a Microsoft product ever again after that? Microsoft would be ruined and thus would never ever take an insane risk like that.

Corporations, even the really big ones, are not like how they are portrayed in the movies and pulp fiction. They do not have unlimited resources to spend on secret bases in hollowed out volcanoes. They are not evil James Bond villains out to take over the world. The life of a corporate officer is a life of constant stress, overtime, financial risk and fear, and it has broken more men than any war.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 08:26:00 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #116 on: July 09, 2015, 10:38:16 AM »
Ok... Seems like Skuzzy withdrew his comment. The reply I made serves little purpose now.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 10:44:46 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #117 on: July 09, 2015, 10:53:03 AM »
Ok... Seems like Skuzzy withdrew his comment. The reply I made serves little purpose now.

Well, I was walking the line of copyright infringement by posting a copy of the text from LM's site.  Thought better of it and removed it.  It would have derailed the topic anyway.

I'll just say I disagree with your assessment of corporations and how they disclose information.  I have worked in the marketing arm of two large corporations.  It is all about smoke and mirrors.

Oh, and depending on your definition of 'back door', Microsoft certainly does things they are not obliged to tell you about.  They have publicly stated so.  Again, depending on your definition.  Just FYI.

EDIT:  Unfortunately, I do not have the time for a lengthy discussion about this, which is another reason I pulled my response as it would have served to drive a long winded discussion.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 11:00:26 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #118 on: July 09, 2015, 11:20:42 AM »
Now my reply would have had a purpose. This is a somewhat annoying way to conduct a discussion.

I also have some experience in marketing, and lying is a cardinal sin. Emphasizing positives while downplaying negatives is not lying. Everyone does that all the time. No one is legally or morally required to tell the whole truth except under oath in a court of law. That Lockheed Martin does not release all the information they have (they are most certainly under legal obligations not to do so) does not mean that people should just fill in the blanks with whatever tickles their fancy. That road leads to tin foil hats, spitting astronauts in the face, and soccer moms not vaccinating their kids.

If Microsoft outlines their data collection and the purpose for it in the license, it is not a back door as I understand the definition. Going by wiki: "A backdoor in a computer system (or cryptosystem or algorithm) is a method of bypassing normal authentication, securing unauthorized remote access to a computer, obtaining access to plaintext, and so on, while attempting to remain undetected. The backdoor may take the form of a hidden part of a program,[1] a separate program (e.g., Back Orifice) may subvert the system through a rootkit."

That Microsoft needs to collect some data is understandable. Just like your accountant needs to look at your financial records, and your mechanic needs to inspect your car. The conspiracy theory is that Microsoft is allowing, willingly or under duress, the alphabet agencies or other "nefarious organizations" access to spy on people and companies.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 11:47:56 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Report of F35A vs F16Cblk40 goes public
« Reply #119 on: July 09, 2015, 11:47:12 AM »
Also, customer satisfaction is directly related to how the product performs compared to the marketing. If the customer feels cheated your marketing has failed terribly. In the information age we currently live in word of mouth (or rather world of social media) is a powerful force that can make or break a company's reputation. If Lockheed Martin completely misrepresents its product, and for the sake of argument let's entertain the ridiculous idea that the USAF, USN, and Marines are all in on the scam. What happens when the RAF blows the whistle? Or one of the other seven nations buying this aircraft so far. Mass cancellations. Law suits. Legal repercussions. Political fallout on an international scale. Lockheed Martin would not survive.
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