REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS

[RODBUSTR]

     I'M SURE MOST HAVE PURSUED HEAVIES ONLY TO BE OUT PACED OR AT THE LEAST UNABLE TO CLOSE ON THEM DO TO THEIR EXCESSIVE DIVE SPEEDS.  IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE THEM LIMITED TO A MORE APPROPRIATE VELOCITY.  USAAF HANDBOOK STATES MAXIMUM DIVE SPEED FOR A B17 IS 304 MPH.....PROBABLY A REAL FORT COULD PUSH 350MPH, BUT THERE WERE 2 PILOTS TO MANHANDLE THE  BIG BIRD OUT OF IT'S PLUNGE....A REAL FORTS PILOTS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO PUT THEIR FEET ON THE DASH AND PULL WITH ALL THEY HAD TO PULL OUT OF A HIGH SPEED DIVE. THAT IS ALL....

[MrKrabs]

     I'M SURE MOST HAVE PURSUED HEAVIES ONLY TO BE OUT PACED OR AT THE LEAST UNABLE TO CLOSE ON THEM DO TO THEIR EXCESSIVE DIVE SPEEDS.  IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE THEM LIMITED TO A MORE APPROPRIATE VELOCITY.  USAAF HANDBOOK STATES MAXIMUM DIVE SPEED FOR A B17 IS 304 MPH.....PROBABLY A REAL FORT COULD PUSH 350MPH, BUT THERE WERE 2 PILOTS TO MANHANDLE THE  BIG BIRD OUT OF IT'S PLUNGE....A REAL FORTS PILOTS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO PUT THEIR FEET ON THE DASH AND PULL WITH ALL THEY HAD TO PULL OUT OF A HIGH SPEED DIVE. THAT IS ALL....

Who says your imaginary pilots didn't?
Who says all their gunners didn't shimmy up to the cockpit and help manhandle the controls?

And like you said a "REAL FORT" may be able push 350mph. USAAF states it as a "MAX" for "safest" top speed not absolute max of the airframe.

[XxDaSTaRxx]

[save]

I recall Snailman's  trying to catch a diving set of buffs at 570mph shooting in formation, while his Me163 was compressed when he tried to follow them 

[Zimme83]

You need to do a check up on your memory, it was 503mph. 

[Beefcake]

I recall Snailman's  trying to catch a diving set of buffs at 570mph shooting in formation, while his Me163 was compressed when he tried to follow them 

I want to know what set of buffs he was chasing at 500MPH.

[hitech]

I want to know what set of buffs he was chasing at 500MPH.

People tend to confuse IAS ant TAS a lot.

HiTech

[bozon]

Buffs could not dive safely at such speeds and angles - the violent vibrations would surely make the navigator spill his hot coffee all over himself. Also, the fuzzy dice pair hanging in the cockpit in front of the pilots would be flailing around and likely kill the pilots.
No dice.

[SirNuke]

the most annoying thing is that during the 400mph dive the buff pilot is able to shift X the angle and use the turrets with the same sniping accuracy

[EagleDNY]

the most annoying thing is that during the 400mph dive the buff pilot is able to shift X the angle and use the turrets with the same sniping accuracy

Well considering you are modeling an aircraft with multiple pilots and gunners, why shouldn't they be able to lock into a dive angle and man the guns? 

I admit it - I'm one of the people that this thread is aimed at.   After a bomb run I will lock the plane into a shallow dive and egress as fast as I can.   I can get B-17 up over 300 and keep it there without trading too much altitude per min and it keeps the majority of the fighters behind you playing catch up. 

400 though?  Maybe in a B-29 way up high you might get a big bomber up over 400 doing that, but most big bombers will shred long before 400.  If you want 400 in a bomber you better think Ar-234 or the Mossie bomber. 

[Beefcake]

400 though?  Maybe in a B-29 way up high you might get a big bomber up over 400 doing that, but most big bombers will shred long before 400.  If you want 400 in a bomber you better think Ar-234 or the Mossie bomber.

I also want to know what bombers are diving away at 400-500+mph. Most of the bombers in AH will shed at the very least their control surfaces at high speed, let alone their wings. Awhile back an old squaddie of mine put his B29 in a power dive when it first came out. I warned him to back it off and slow down but he said "I've got it", at around 380 I think the ailerons came off followed quickly by the elevators and then the wings. Our heavy bombers are pushing their limits when you go past 300+, IIRC the B17 is going to start falling apart at around 350.

In my opinion pilots today are to impatient and rather than waiting until a tactical advantage comes up they push ahead and get caught in the rearward defensive fire. Remember in most cases the bomber is going to run out of altitude at some point, so just get setup and wait until he makes his mistake or slows down......or crashes into the ground.

[Zimme83]

Asked Google and B-17 Vne seems to be 270mph IAS, at 30.000 ft that is 440mph TAS so 400-450 is very doable at altitude.

[bozon]

Asked Google and B-17 Vne seems to be 270mph IAS, at 30.000 ft that is 440mph TAS so 400-450 is very doable at altitude.

Ask Google if 3 B17s can keep a close formation at TAS 450, and what happens to the waste gunners that are trying to stand in front of an open window and shoot into a 450 mph wind.

German JU88s used to bomb Britain from around 20,000 feet and then escape in a shallow dive (at night). While it increased their chances of escape, if a night Fighter found them, it could close on them quite easily
 They were not diving on the edge of compressibility.

[Zimme83]

Ask Google if 3 B17s can keep a close formation at TAS 450, and what happens to the waste gunners that are trying to stand in front of an open window and shoot into a 450 mph wind.

German JU88s used to bomb Britain from around 20,000 feet and then escape in a shallow dive (at night). While it increased their chances of escape, if a night Fighter found them, it could close on them quite easily
 They were not diving on the edge of compressibility.

Not so relevant, we have drones and convergenced guns to compensate for the fact that we only have 1 or 2 gunners. In fact AH gunners are rather ineffective, only close to the 500 yard convergence is it effective to fire all guns, other than that its just a waste of ammo.

Rather than attack a diving buff from the rear, just follow him, he will have to level out and then he is an easier kill than before.

[bozon]

Not so relevant, we have drones and convergenced guns to compensate for the fact that we only have 1 or 2 gunners. In fact AH gunners are rather ineffective, only close to the 500 yard convergence is it effective to fire all guns, other than that its just a waste of ammo.

Rather than attack a diving buff from the rear, just follow him, he will have to level out and then he is an easier kill than before.

No.

AH gunners are an order of magnitude more effective than their real life counterparts. The 500 convergence is relevant only between the drones, not for gun position on the same plane. A scattered gun pattern lowers the lethality but increase hit probability - buffs rarely kill me, but they wound the pilot and hit fuel or oil from crazy angles and relative speeds very often.

You have never followed your own advice have you? At 420 mph the buff covers 7 miles per minute. If he is depending at 4000-5000 feet/min and starts from about 15000 alt, he will fly an entire sector before it reaches the deck. During these 3-4 minutes you cannot overtake it - you have to keep at least 1.5d out in order to keep out of the gunners reach (sniping at you through a 420 mph cross wind from a vibrating plane without ill effects). Once you slowly start to overtake it, the buff pilot will make a small course correction and bring you to his rear section again, or converge into you and bring you into turrets range. Assuming you have a 50 mph advantage in order to overtake it, it will put most fighters in the uncomfortable zone in terms of compressibility and maneuvering for a shot, while the gunners still shoot as if the bomber was parked on the ground.

You will never kill all 3 buffs which means that the dweeb gets to land his sortie - lets face it, no one cares how many drones made it back - they are just "3 strikes" for the player.