Author Topic: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization  (Read 2036 times)

Offline Muzzy

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 02:37:07 PM »
+1 (give or take 999000)


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 02:55:22 PM »
Wow...  I don't think I have ever seen a unanimous acceptance of a wish before...even bustr is on board with this one hahaha..

spose I better keep the roll going  +1

Offline BuckShot

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2015, 06:47:45 PM »
+1 to standardized or customizable gun positions

-100 to "commander" style, out-of-plane gunner view for bombers.
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Offline bustr

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2015, 10:10:03 PM »
Hey...in the spirit of Hitech's new game.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Drane

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2015, 09:38:36 AM »
+1  :aok
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2015, 10:55:15 AM »
Far as I'm concerned, if it's a button command it should be remappable.  +1.

Wiley.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2015, 12:14:49 PM »
Hitech explained why it is the way it is but I don't have a link. IIRC there is no standard sequence that fits all the different bomber gun configurations.

You could try to make an alternate table of the standard positions you'd like to see. For whatever reason there has never been an alternate system explained in detail, only the general idea has been expressed.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2015, 01:43:13 PM »
Hitech explained why it is the way it is but I don't have a link. IIRC there is no standard sequence that fits all the different bomber gun configurations.

You could try to make an alternate table of the standard positions you'd like to see. For whatever reason there has never been an alternate system explained in detail, only the general idea has been expressed.

the same was said about vehicles.


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Offline Scca

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2015, 02:00:57 PM »
Hitech explained why it is the way it is but I don't have a link. IIRC there is no standard sequence that fits all the different bomber gun configurations.

You could try to make an alternate table of the standard positions you'd like to see. For whatever reason there has never been an alternate system explained in detail, only the general idea has been expressed.
That doesn't mean there couldn't be.  It makes no sense that the equivalent gun in different planes can't be the same button.  I usually don't fly the B-29 for obvious reasons.  I finally got one up, and lost one because I hit 4 to go into the tail gun and was looking out the nose.   :bhead
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Offline bustr

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2015, 02:05:42 PM »
I wonder if the 4 controller Modes and mapping a key to cycle Modes is the concession to the mixed bag of gun position number assignments. That would allow for remapping the controller buttons for positions 1-9 but, it would still be keyboard mapped keys 1-9.

My impression is the players interested in this want to rearrange the numbers jump position order to give themselves a sense of standardization so they don't have to maintain multiple jump patterns in their minds while trying to change gun positions to follow an attacker.

Since bombers in this game are in some ways departed from reality for playability's sake, giving dedicated bomber drivers the ability to attempt a standardization of their gun positions doesn't seem too much to ask. It's not as if they are demanding Hitech give them a lead computing green cross in every gunsight. Just a way to make jumping gun positions meaningful to their mental architecture.

In the hanger give them the positions with a default number mapping, then allow the numbers to be manually changed and saved to a control file. Just imagine the confusion the first time someone has to do a full reinstall from scratch and forgets about that little item...... :O
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline APDrone

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2015, 03:10:46 PM »
Hitech explained why it is the way it is but I don't have a link. IIRC there is no standard sequence that fits all the different bomber gun configurations.

You could try to make an alternate table of the standard positions you'd like to see. For whatever reason there has never been an alternate system explained in detail, only the general idea has been expressed.

Yeah, been thinking about that..

The common theme I see with the gunner positions is that they all start with 2 and are assigned sequentially until the positions are filled.  True, there are bombers that have unique positions while not having 'normal' ones, so if you stick to strict sequential assignment, then, yeah, they won't be able to line up with the others.

Now, I don't know how AH is written or in what language, but I'm pretty sure you're ultimately dealing with pointers.. and there is nothing that says keys can't use the same pointers.
So, if you do have a gap in the sequence, assign 'gap' keys to a different position to satisfy whatever table/hashing coding strategy you're using.

Here's what I've come up with.. and this is really a draft attempt..



This is making a few assumptions:

1. The secondary gunner of any bomber is referred to as the 'tail gunner'.  So, for the sake of gunner positions, the position with the best coverage of the tail will be position 2.

2. The most common position of all bombers is the upper turret ( or ventral or whatever the Germans call it ) so we'll make that position 3.

3. For the sake of symantics, we won't call the lower position 'ball', since only 2 of the bombers actually have that position.  Let's call them lower.  We'll make that position 4.

4. Next in line is the nose.. we'll make that 5.

5. Then we have the waist guns.  Let's make those 6 for left and 7 for right.

Let's look at the B25C Glass nose.  It has 2 gunner positions.  Upper turret and nose gunner.  Since we've decided to make the upper turret position '3' and the nose position '5', we have to figure out what to do with positions 2 and 4, if we do have to stick to sequential table assignments.  So, let's assign '2' and '4' to the upper turret also.. although, it may make more sense to assign '4' to the nose, since it would be the closest thing to a 'lower' position.

So if I get into a B25C and I want to jump to the tail gun, I'll hit '2'.  But there is not true 'tail' gun in the 25C, so the program will treat the '2' as a '3' and put you in the upper turret.

Anyway, I'd thought I'd toss this out for consideration.

 :salute
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Offline Randy1

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2015, 07:57:28 AM »
Hitech explained why it is the way it is but I don't have a link. IIRC there is no standard sequence that fits all the different bomber gun configurations.

You could try to make an alternate table of the standard positions you'd like to see. For whatever reason there has never been an alternate system explained in detail, only the general idea has been expressed.

I don't remember HTC posting that.  I think another player did but he was shown wrong.  It does work. 

As an example the A20 with a rear facing gun.  It's not a tail gun though, it is a top gun.  You just have to keep in mind all rear facing guns are not tail guns.

I don't fly and shot in in F3 so I  depend on my hat switch for views.  That means my hat switch only works for the B17.  Kind of sucks.

Fix this and you can do away with F3.











Offline Muzzy

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2015, 09:26:18 AM »
This is essentially like the attempts at remapping the QWERTY keyboard but with less work involved. Basically we want to make the layout more ergonomic. The most used gun should always be 2, the next most used should be 3, etc. I'd say that the waist guns should always be at the end of the row as they are the least used guns, and that  the best available rear facing gum should be 2. The chart is an excellent start.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline bustr

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2015, 03:42:57 PM »
Just give each bomber a position map in the hanger to allow mapping of keys 1-9. The default is the current Hitech has set for all planes with gunner positions. It would end up in a flat file something like below if you have ever opened the settings and other files in Notepad. The reason why I suggested Hitech make the format available in the alpha for testing as a player editable flat file. You guys are trying to build an Iphone with twigs.

B17.jmp
Nose,2
Tail,3
Ball,4
LWaist,5
RWaist ,6
Top,7

Make the list match the real gun positions.

He111.jmp
Nose,2
Dorsal ,3
VentFore,4
VentAft,5
LWaist ,6
RWaist,7

Ju88.jmp
DorsalLeft,2
DorsalRight,3
Ventral,4
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Muzzy

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Re: Bomber Gunner Position Standardization
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2015, 08:26:33 PM »
. You guys are trying to build an Iphone with twigs.


That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"