Author Topic: B-29 losses and the KI45  (Read 3877 times)

Offline Terrible

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B-29 losses and the KI45
« on: August 11, 2015, 03:14:48 PM »
I have been looking around trying to find out how b-29's were shot down, I am finding wild numbers from 700 to 150 from different places, I was also surprised that some said the B-29's also operated from China? and that they were very ineffective in the beginning

I also heard that the k-45 had some success against them?
I was just wondering if anyone knew how many b-29's we lost to fighters and how Japan tried to deal with them.

Offline lyric1

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Offline Muzzy

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 03:22:21 PM »
http://www.econseminars.com/6th_Bombardment_Group_Tinian/Risks.pdf

Supplemental to the above. Statistically it shows that there were a *lot* of milk runs interspersed with a few "bad days" where losses would be considerably higher.


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Offline Terrible

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 06:19:48 PM »
Thanks that was insightful, those reads.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2015, 09:53:04 PM »
Most of the B-29 losses during the war were from AAA and mechanical breakdowns (usually engines)
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Offline icepac

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2015, 06:48:49 PM »
Didn't the ki43 score the most b29 kills?

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 11:14:28 PM »
I always thought it was the Nik1.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 07:13:22 PM »
Tony Williams and I discussed this topic on here many years ago. I asked how B-29s could be shot down by Japanese fighters (inferior to German fighters), with their advanced turrets and fire control systems. He said that even as advanced at the B-29s gun system was, defensive guns were at an inherent disadvantage.  Also, no turret system is truly effective at aerial gunnery.  I will try to dig up the thread, I am sure I'm misquoting him horribly.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 07:19:15 PM »
Certainly training was important. It is also worth noting that guns in a good, powered turret were far more accurate than hand-held ones (the waist guns on US bombers were really waste guns :)).

Even accepting their claims (and the claims for shootdowns from US bombers were way, way over reality) guns mounted on fighters were about ten times as effective in terms of number of bullets fired for each kill.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 12:37:42 AM »
Most of the B-29 losses during the war were from AAA and mechanical breakdowns (usually engines)

Stand corrected, both the 20th and 21st Bomber Command B-29s suffered more losses due to "other" (weather or mechanical failure) than combat action.

20th BC
80 total losses
22 due to fighter
7 from AAA
51 from "other"

Interesting to note that the 20th BC suffered 70 losses in 1944 while only 10 in 1945.

21st BC
334 total losses
52 due to fighters
47 from AAA
19 from fighter/AAA
216 from "other"

In 1944, the 21st BC only suffered 25 losses while in 1945 losses jumped up dramatically with 309 losses with the majority due to "other".

Looks like the most dangerous thing about B-29 missions where the B-29s themselves.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 01:12:31 AM »
Tony Williams and I discussed this topic on here many years ago. I asked how B-29s could be shot down by Japanese fighters (inferior to German fighters), with their advanced turrets and fire control systems. He said that even as advanced at the B-29s gun system was, defensive guns were at an inherent disadvantage.  Also, no turret system is truly effective at aerial gunnery.  I will try to dig up the thread, I am sure I'm misquoting him horribly.

Maybe but the defensive gunnery of the B29s were respected by the Jap pilots. Whom BTW simply werent as "good" as the German ones nor did they have equal aircraft or cannon. Add to that the 29s were so fast and often flew so high the Japanese pilots didnt have the head on opportunities the Germans did against the 17s and 24s. Nor did they have the high altitude performance of some of the German fighters.

I'd like to know the true numbers lost to individual type aircraft but unfortunately we'll never really know. They often flew into bad weather or drifted away at night and nobody ever found out why. But I'd put Japanese interception at the bottom of the list. We lost enough to mechanical issues, flying into mountains, and getting lost at sea. The Jap fighter forces were never a serious threat to the B29s.

I think Jap claims of kills to be the worst exaggerations of the war. The fact is there is only one reason the B29s were able to reduce their industry's, cities, and vital sea lanes to rubble and thats cause they were able to.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 02:03:09 AM »
I think Jap claims of kills to be the worst exaggerations of the war. The fact is there is only one reason the B29s were able to reduce their industry's, cities, and vital sea lanes to rubble and thats cause they were able to.
American bomber gunner claims are even worse.
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Offline save

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 02:09:18 AM »

I think Jap claims of kills to be the worst exaggerations of the war. The fact is there is only one reason the B29s were able to reduce their industry's, cities, and vital sea lanes to rubble and thats cause they were able to.

as KArnak pointed out, American buff gunners in ETO 1943 where not any better than the Japanese in that respect.
If a German fighter got shot down by defensive fire of the combat box of B17s, many of the gunners could have sworn it was just him who got the German plane.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2015, 02:20:17 PM »
American bomber gunner claims are even worse.

I would generally agree but would point out with 3 or 4 bombers shooting at a single fighter its easy to make the honest mistake of thinking it was "your" guns that did it. Fighter vs bomber it was easier to tell.

I believe much of the reason the JAAFs claims were accepted was to upp morale on the home front. Then again with the terrible losses suffered by the 8'th AF in Europe it could be argued kill claims were allowed to be exaggerated for morale reasons too. I just read a book that had the remembrances of some of the very few JAAFs fighter pilots that survived the war, most of whom started fighting in China and somehow survived the entire conflict. They themselves knew at the time their own kill claims by their Air Forces were ridiculous.

But they had the added problem of fighting while outnumbered against extremely well built enemy fighters, most of whom when hit were probably able to make it back to a CV or strip. There was no way they could have waited to see if the Hell Cats or Corsairs fell into the sea because they would have been dead had they waited to do so. American fighter pilots exaggerated kills also.

Again if anyone has a link to a factual loss list of 29s against various JAAFs fighters I'd love to see it. It was common for the Japanese Govt. to claim 100 29s shot down in a single attack but I doubt 100 were shot down by their fighters in the entire war.
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Offline EagleDNY

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Re: B-29 losses and the KI45
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2015, 10:24:13 AM »
Oh no - the Japanese definitely got some B29s.   The speed and high-altitude of the B29s made it difficult for Japanese fighters to catch them and even when they did it took a lot of fire to shoot one down.  That is why they quickly learned to KAMIKAZE RAM the B29s - the loss of 1 fighter and pilot for 1 B29 and 11 US airmen was a win for them.   

http://b-29s-over-korea.com/Japanese_Kamikaze/Japanese_Kamikaze10.html