The minimum wage machine

[pembquist]

I'm not a believer of the labor theory of value...

I'm not being esoteric. If I hire someone to do a job for me, I am paying them less than what their work is worth because that is where my money comes from. I sell their labor for more than I pay for it. I could say that my genius risk taking blah blah blah is where my money is coming from and its marginal utility demand side blah blah blah but thats bull. When I pay one guy half of what I pay the other and they are equally productive their work product is equally valuable to me even though the price is different. This is not hypothetical, there always has to be a margin, it expands and contracts but it's always got to be their or I'm out of business. It's amoral but its the world we live in.

[PR3D4TOR]

If you meant to say that it is immoral I cannot agree with you. As an employer you provide the means and opportunity for your employees to profit from their own labor. If not, why do they even need you? The part of the value of their labor that you profit from goes to cover their use of your property, your equipment, your insurance, your capital investment (and investors), your marketing, your connections, your administrative and organizational skills, and most of all your risk. It is mutually beneficial. If they didn't need you, they wouldn't work for you.

[PR3D4TOR]

Food, shelter, transportation, insurance.

And you think those are not achievable on $7/hour?

[guncrasher]

I make around 26 bucks an hour.  not great, but a bit above average.  with ot some years I make anywhere between 60 to 90k.   I worked my buttt off the last 4 months working outside in the sun to do a job that was worth far more than I got paid.  you know what it got me?  it got me a warning for calling out 3 times due to heat exhaustion.  so I pulled back on the amount of work I get and stay outside or in the shade longer.  I do about 1/2 the work I did before.  after all I still get paid the same.

now tell me  why should I work more when it could get me fired.  you think I am unique, I know plenty of people in other jobs that are happy not to learn anything else or hide what they know because it just means more work for same amount of pay.

when it comes to jobs it works both ways.  30 years ago the attitude of my employers was what can we do to make you perform and be happy. and keep in mind I have had 3 employers.  now the attitude is we can replace you with somebody else.


semp

[FBKampfer]

And you think those are not achievable on $7/hour?

They are not. At least not in Portland, and I suspect for most of the country.

The average price for a 2 bedroom apartment is right around 700/mo, for a really cheap sketchy place.

That alone is about half of a minimum wage paycheck.

Add in a $1000 dollar beater that needs fixing every 3 months, let's say about 150/mo unless you're unlucky.

Insurance.... Well that depends. Can't really generalize that.

But that leaves just 350 a month for gas, food, and insurance, assuming you have no unexpected expenses, like your shoes crapping out on you, or a theft, or something.

Now I think food should include healthy food, proving adequate nutrition for a 2500cal/day diet, including complete proteins, and sufficient vitamins and minerals across the board to support a healthy adult. Depending on where you live, this gets expensive, as you must also factor in gas spent getting there.

And gas was getting pretty bad for a while. Especially since a lot of the old beaters don't get great milage.

Secondly, 8hours rest should be a requirement for a healthy lifestyle. Sleep is surprisingly important to mental and physical wellbeing.

Depending on where you live, you're going to just make it, or just fall short.


And what about wanting kids? Sure you'll have your spouse's income after a while, but a kid also carries a lot of expenses. The answer cannot be, "well just don't have kids". There should be no monetary requirements for fulfilling the primary purpose of life. Otherwise you're essentially saying, "you're just too poor to live".



And let's get down to the bottom of the issue. You're essentially saying minimum wage workers aren't contributing enough. This makes sense from a purely subsistence standpoint, but the developed world is no longer at that point. We have the capability to provide adequately for everyone.

It doesn't even seem to carry any significant economic costs. Germany, the 4th largest economy, the largest in Europe, does a far better job than we do at providing not merely life, but a dignified life to all. Despite the fact that, at least on paper, they have less money per person to spend.

[DmonSlyr]

See Rule #14

[morfiend]

Having enough you pay your AH subscription every month.

If i had £60 million i would be like Elton John.

   Zack,does this mean you'd be a poffer?


   The only way to earn what you think you are worth is to work for yourself,otherwise you will always be underpaid,whether that's true or not!!

   My first job paid 75 cents an hour and I thought I was rich!

       I was also 9 yo at the time!


   

[Oldman731]

Secondly, 8hours rest should be a requirement for a healthy lifestyle.

Yikes!  I don't believe I've had that much sleep on a work night since...1978, I guess.

Part of the price you pay for advancing is giving up your otherwise free time.

- oldman

[pembquist]

Well you cannot agree with a ghost then. The word is AMORAL.

Marginal Utility Demand Side Blah Blah Blah.

They should be so lucky to toil in our fields.

Its like Jay Gould and Stalin and Marie Antoinette had a threesome.

Zack has dazzled me.

[BaldEagl]

Zimme, you really don't see the correlation?

(Image removed from quote.)

I don't understand where your marked up chart correlates minimum wage increases with unemployment rates.  What it does show is minimum wage in terms of actual purchasing power (normalized to 2009) and it does show that every time minimum wage was raised it spiked in terms of purchasing power.  Well duh.  It further shows that the purchasing power of minimum wage has largely been maintained over the period measured, occasionally having to be bumped up to keep pace with inflation.

So where do you see correlated or uncorrelated unemployment rates in that chart?

[zack1234]

   Zack,does this mean you'd be a poffer?


   The only way to earn what you think you are worth is to work for yourself,otherwise you will always be underpaid,whether that's true or not!!

   My first job paid 75 cents an hour and I thought I was rich!

       I was also 9 yo at the time!


   

Yes

When people get loads of coin they marry men and put ferritts on thier heads.

Its all been written about 'wealth' by a german bloke buried in london...but your not allowed to quote it here.

[JVboob]

Minimum wage is where you START, much like everyone else. Where you go from there is COMPLETELY up to you. Be lazy and squeak and moan instead of doing your job, and minimum is all you'll get. Shut up and do your job to best of your ability and then some and you move up to better jobs, and better pay.

Your ENTITLED to nothing. You EARN what you get. PERIOD.

As much as you hate me fugitive I will completely agree with you!! <S> heck may even like you alittle bit after reading that

[FLOOB]

I watched a show about living in Germany recently, sort of a reality show about a UK family that moved there. An interesting fact mentioned was that about 2/3 of families in Germany rent, and most don't buy a home until late adulthood. One reason is that people in Germany are reluctant to acquire debt, or credit as we call it. Whereas in the states and in the UK people are expected and maybe even encouraged to be indebted to the bank. In fact I watched a german comedian do a bit about it when he was in the UK. I also noticed  watching that show that german employees seem rather servile, not as much as japanese workers but still, it seemed to be a cultural thing. And that is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the company you work for gives a toejam about you. But in the states, as Semp said, the attitude of a lot of employers seems to be like that of Stalin towards his staff, "I can have you all terminated and replaced tomorrow." And you do see a higher turnover of employees in the states compared to germany where people stay at the same job longer. Bottom line is labor relations in the uk and the states is much more adversarial. Where the employer attitude is "we can replace you tomorrow" and the mantra of the employee is "always look for a better job". I'll try to find the youtube links.

[FLOOB]

[FLOOB]

German comedian on attitudes toward money and housing in the UK.