787 battery fires: NOT caused by batteries

[Busher]

Yep. They tend to be the highest paid union workers at Boeing.

Sounds like we got a died in the wool union hater, huh?

Like ALPA too? (the Airline Pilots Association) Oh ya, I forgot - it was airline managements that have pushed so hard for air safety these past 70 odd years

[rpm]

Sounds to me like Boeing QC dropped the ball.

Yep.

I think we're done here.

[Ripsnort]

Sounds like we got a died in the wool union hater, huh?

Like ALPA too? (the Airline Pilots Association) Oh ya, I forgot - it was airline managements that have pushed so hard for air safety these past 70 odd years

IAM hater, yes. If you know knew how they not only cut our throats but their own in the past 30 years.

[SysError]

I think we're done here.

Agree, this is going nowhere expect into a pit of sour feelings.

[Busher]

Agree, this is going nowhere expect into a pit of sour feelings.

Ya, I agree. no one's point of view is going to change

[Ripsnort]

FYI, IAM is International Aerospace Workers.
And you're right, I don't want to taint the thread anymore politically than I already have.

[Busher]

FYI, IAM is International Aerospace Workers.
And you're right, I don't want to taint the thread anymore politically than I already have.

No slight to you intended but out of respect for my union brothers its actually IAMAW - International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers

[pipz]

Looking at the diagram it is obvious to me that the "Engine nacelles" are the best parts! 

[Ripsnort]

No slight to you intended but out of respect for my union brothers its actually IAMAW - International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers

True, they merged with AW since 1964. We always shortened it to IAM.

Within 4 years of leaving the IAMAW union, I doubled my pay from day 1 to year 14, to year 18 at Boeing... Salary is "Pay for Performance". And at Boeing, that bar is held relatively low....
They retard what you're really capable of making. Just saying. Don't be a sheep. Be a leader and control your own destination. I do not intend that to be directed at you personally, I'm just saying...I was held back due to the union protocols and seniority. Don't even get me started on unfair treatment of their own brothers....that's something you and I can share over beers some day. You'll be astounded....Mind you, I hired in 1979 and was union until 1999. I saw what the union did to a lot of brothers, and was mindful where our union dues went, which was primarily lining their own pockets as well as the politicians they told us we should support. 

[Patches1]

Sounds to me like Boeing QC dropped the ball.

Actually, no, it wasn't and isn't the Boeing line inspectors who dropped the ball; it was, and still is the change in Boeing Management Philosophy that caused the ball to be dropped. After the merger with McDonnell Douglas, the Boeing Company changed from a Company that cared about it's Customers and Employees, to a Company that only cared about it's profits and was/is determined to break the IAM Union. How do I know? I've lived through it, just like Ripsnort; but the two of us have differing views, and different experiences, it seems, over the same period of time.

Now what Ripsnort didn't tell you is that those first line numbers were not all from Everett, and that most of the line numbers needing rework were from South Carolina and had to be completely reworked by IAM workers at the Everett facility. Oh! And you should know that the Everett facility only assembles the parts they are sent from South Carolina, it does not produce them. So it seems that the QC issues really reside in South Carolina, with non-union workers, but have to be resolved and reworked in Everett, Washington, with IAM workers, or is it really a Corporate issue where the current Management philosophy is that Managers don't have to know the jobs, only manage people?

This response is not a slam at Ripsnort, but merely a rebuttal to his post.   

[Ripsnort]

You make good points about the rework being done in Everett. This due to an inexperienced workforce at BSC.

You also make excellent points about Boeing management, I've watched that transition you speak of happen (I've been there since 1979).

We'll have to agree to disagree on the unions though. The 1989 and 1995 strikes did nothing for the union workers, as a matter of fact, they essentially settled for the very same contract 69 days later in the 1995 strike.

[Patches1]

Hey, Ripsnort,

I think we are closer in agreement than you think. The very reason I retired when I did was because of the new Boeing Management philosophy and the age split the Boeing Company created within the Union between us old guys, and the new guys, and the way the Boeing Company has played the split to their advantage. The Boeing Company from which I retired is not the same Boeing Company into which I hired.

As for politics and voting what the IAM recommended how I should vote, well...I mostly, but not always, voted opposite the Union recommendations for 33 years. I often butted heads with my Union Stewards and Union Reps regarding Union and Political issues, but I always supported the Union majority vote even though I might personally have disagreed with it.

The 787 is a good aircraft, and with the exception of the battery issues, it has proven itself to be a somewhat competitive aircraft in today's market. The real issue with the 787 is that it has financially nearly sunk the Boeing Company due to it's 787 management policies (from the start of the program) and it will take 1000 + sales of this aircraft to simply break even, financially. The worst issue of the 787 Program is that the 787 Management Philosophy has permeated the other programs within the Company and encourages the "yes man" philosophy that discourages opposing views and leads to poor quality control.

Soapbox? What Soapbox? Oh! That one! LOL! I'll step down now! Sorry, Folks!

<S> Rip!

[Ripsnort]

By the way, just confirmed lines 1-169 were all made in Everett. Some line number after that (Made in BSC) had traveled work items that had to be completed up here after Final Assembly so in essence the quality wasn't 'fixed' by Everett aerospace workers but rather "completed" because at the time BSC was not ready for prime time.

I was told this in a meeting yesterday by a ME who works on the shop floor.

[earl1937]

But rather union workers.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Investigation-2013-Dreamliner-fire-caused-by-crossed-wires-322282171.html

In the case you have a link to, I guess it was crossed wires which caused the fire! But, there have been other fires, which were caused by the batteries! You have to remember that when they are designing an aircraft, the more weight they can save in building the a/c, the more fare paying passengers and freight they can carry. The lithium batteries are a wonderful pc of equipment, as it is small, relative speaking and light and allows for more "pay load" on the aircraft!
In the case of the 787, I think the batteries are much to small and light for the amount of amps they have to carry and hence, I think you have over heated batteries, which result in fires. I think if you check, if I recall correctly, when the whole fleet of 787's were grounded, batteries which were used in the 767 were installed in the 787's to get the fleet back in the air!
I could be wrong, but that was what I was told by someone who flies for a major airline.

[Ripsnort]

In the case you have a link to, I guess it was crossed wires which caused the fire! But, there have been other fires, which were caused by the batteries! You have to remember that when they are designing an aircraft, the more weight they can save in building the a/c, the more fare paying passengers and freight they can carry. The lithium batteries are a wonderful pc of equipment, as it is small, relative speaking and light and allows for more "pay load" on the aircraft!
In the case of the 787, I think the batteries are much to small and light for the amount of amps they have to carry and hence, I think you have over heated batteries, which result in fires. I think if you check, if I recall correctly, when the whole fleet of 787's were grounded, batteries which were used in the 767 were installed in the 787's to get the fleet back in the air!
I could be wrong, but that was what I was told by someone who flies for a major airline.

Yes, many threads about that here on this OT forum discussing that. This thread was a follow up to all the others.