Author Topic: Stock markets doom !  (Read 24495 times)

Offline RotBaron

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #120 on: September 08, 2015, 11:50:57 PM »
Rip, nothing personal but do you know what that ROI is?

That 5% he just lost in two weeks took him one of those 28 yrs to make.
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline zack1234

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #121 on: September 09, 2015, 01:36:55 AM »
 :rofl

Do people actually read history books.

Has anyone read that book written in 1860's which envokes a immediate forum violation.

I got a 25% payrise last year and this year cause i am cheap. (I bought a £4500 vespa gts with cash)

The fact that there are replies of 7 or 8 paragraphs is a clear example of the stupidity of people.

The North Koreans are to blame :rofl


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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #122 on: September 09, 2015, 08:46:31 AM »
I have finally began investing in companies this year in the stock market and I've got to say its been pretty interesting and very volital, wish I had 10K to play with.  It's exciting to finally be able to grow money. I plan to be very good at investing. My goal is to be able to play the stock market until I can save to possibly go all in and start a business or just play stocks all day.

In Amerika...the Stock Market plays YOU!
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Offline RotBaron

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2015, 06:08:24 PM »


I have finally began investing in companies this year in the stock market and I've got to say its been pretty interesting and very volital, wish I had 10K to play with.  It's exciting to finally be able to grow money. I plan to be very good at investing. My goal is to be able to play the stock market until I can save to possibly go all in and start a business or just play stocks all day. That is a tough transition to make I imagine. It's always been a dream of mine.

If this is something you really want to do, play with other ppl's $. Get a degree in Accounting or Finance, move to NY or Chicago and take any job on the floor you can get your hands on. Bust tail and get in the door, work on your MS on the side and then become a CFP and start your own business. By then you'll be playing with other ppl's money all day long and have learned to avoid a lot of pitfalls.

The market eats noobs alive, heck it eats experts everyday. I've said this in other threads, it's gambling if you are playing stocks in the short-term.
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline SysError

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2015, 08:28:03 PM »
These are kinda long, but some of you might be in to it.
I'm a big fan of this guy, even though he has gotten the crap beat out of him the last 6 years for being too bearish.  I think he has a better grasp on whats going on than most.  I think he just couldn't make himself believe the Fed would actually keep doing what its been doing since 2009.  In his defense, it is without historic precedence. Also, I believe he will be proven right in the next year or two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYkCaUB1BQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmUCjOjOeCo

Wab


I watched the first vid.  Interesting.  I plan to watch at least another piece or two by him.  I do not know if I’ll end up agreeing with everything he might say.  But he seemed for the most part to have a number of reasoned observations backed up by data that he had processed through the lenses of standard economic methodologies. 

I should say that at first I thought that he was some type of economic public policy guy, but then I realized that he really did not seem to fit that mold.  I then thought he was some kind of an industry sector or perhaps even a specific company investment advisor.  I then waited to see if he was going to tell us about an upcoming special opportunity to purchase some Acme Corp limited availability Class D shares.  Nope.

I guess he is some sort of an investment advisor with a focus on macro level economic issues.

Much of what he presented, to my ear, was a “Here is what is going on, some of it is a bit nuts if you ask me, but here is perhaps how you might want to think about it”.

BTW, starting a conference by stating that the purpose of finance should be to fund productive activity in the economy is probably going to get him labeled as a communist in some circles.

But let us move on.

His criticism of QE/QEII is not necessarily unique, and yes there is wide agreement that at some point monetary policy becomes in effect close to pointless.   His suggestion that at levels above nominal 6% GDP, the effectiveness of QE drops off like crazy (and ends up boosting the stock market), is perhaps reasonable (I had always thought that economists who thought along these lines said that the number was closer to 3 – 4%, but I have a pretty poor memory on this sort of stuff). 

I think every main stream economist believes that there are diminishing returns.  There are disagreements as to the trigger points and the long term impact.  A question that he didn’t address was in an environment where fiscal policy is an utter no go, what other choice is there?

I thought that his explanation of high corporate profit levels with low wage rates was perhaps his weakest point.   I think he needed to go beyond an explanation in which he says that he thinks it has all been a result of unbalanced equilibrium forces working themselves out. (Am I mischaracterizing him here?  Could be, listened to him over the screams of kids at the pool). 

For example, I thought that within his chart of the 3 year change in government and personal savings compared to the numbers for 3 year growth in corporate profits, that there was what looked like a period of about 10 years that showed the exact opposite of what he was claiming.  At least that is what it looked like to me.

Not to discount his reasoning behind his thoughts on high corporate profit levels with low wage rates, I think a reasonable explanation of what has been going on could include the following (and other) factors:

•   The growth of monopolization within certain sectors
•   Weakened unions
•   The shrinking middle class
•   Globalization
•   The lack of effective regulation and oversight of the financial sector
•   And etc. etc.

Going down to these levels may not be his thing.  He did seem like a high level kind of guy.

I think that he was spot on when he called for more Gross Domestic Investment in order to generate real GDP growth.  What I didn’t hear was what his views were on how to do that.  Modifying monetary policy may be a prerequisite to any plan, but I think he should have explained himself on how to increase productive economic activity.  After all, it is probably the main public policy issue that economists disagree on.

I am wondering if he avoids economically partisan topics that are only tangential to the main point he is trying to convey. 

BTW: loved his point on the multiplier effect of the bank reserve requirement.  Reminded me of a very old argument I had had as a kid.  I had forgotten all about it.

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Offline SysError

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2015, 08:30:07 PM »
The market eats noobs alive, heck it eats experts everyday. I've said this in other threads, it's gambling if you are playing stocks in the short-term.

“It’s a racket. Those stock market guys are crooked.”

Al Capone
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Offline SysError

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2015, 09:20:31 PM »
Annnnnnd now they finally admit that ZIRP doesn't even help that much in promoting growth:

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/06/g-20-says-low-rates-not-enough-to-boost-growth-is-split-on-chinas-yuan.html

Seems to me they just signaled a rate hike for Sept.

They may not have promoted growth, but they have inflated a dangerous equities bubble and promoted insane malinvestment.
1. ZIRP has closed off yield from every other safe investment so a boat load of money has been poured into the market that should have never been there.  That puts pressure on stock prices to rise because of increased demand.  The second that ends, that money will flow right back out to bonds, CDs, etc.  Well some of it any way.  The portion they don't lose as the market craters before they can get out.

2.  ZIRP has made corporate earnings seem higher than they really are by lowering their carrying costs.  That has allowed supported higher stock prices because it makes their P/E look better. 

3.  ZIRP has kept borrowing costs so low that corps have started engaging in insane malinvestment like debt-financed stock buyback to keep inflating their stock prices.  Hint: this is very popular with the company executives who want to unload their stock options at good prices.  Nice of the stockholders to take on all that debt so the CEO can get cash.

4.  ZIRP has created a deadly level of complacency in the market.  After 6 years, some younger people in the industry have come to believe that is normal.  I've had people tell me it's the "new normal" and we can expect ZIRP for another decade at least.  This makes people believe that the market is now under the Fed protection and will never go down significantly, only up, up, up!  They are mistaken.

The sad part is, I think they did the right thing in 2008-2011 with ZIRP.  After 2011 they should have VERY VERY slowly started tapering off.
I agree with the need to pump money in to the economy to help stimulate things.  However instead I would have liked to have seen us:

Rebuild every interstate hi-way bridge
Rebuild/expand every major airport
Lay gigabit fiber to every household
Convert every coal-fired electrical plant to gas
Create a Apollo type project to revolutionize battery technology
ect, etc.

All these things could have pumped Gov money into a lagging economy (yes, I'm a moderate keynesian) without as many of the bad effect of ZIRP-4-ever.  And the is would all be great investments that would pay for themselves over time in increased productivity.

The other sad part is I think the pain is baked into the cake at this point.
I don't see any way of avoiding the reckoning now. 
And I think the reckoning is coming soon. 

Please.  Review your investment portfolios now and make sure they are balanced for your risk tolerance and time horizon.

Wab

As bad as it is, ZIRP and QE, in the short run the argument goes, avoids the nightmare of deflation.

I think that I agree with your four points. 

I have always thought that the Fed needed to accept a small inflation rate.  With inflation at or very near zero, a CEO can be seen as being safe by just keeping a very large cash on hand position. Which is what a lot of large corporations have been doing for a while.  Say you had an inflation rate of say 1 – 2 %.  By keeping a large cash on hand position you are going to be seen, on a nominal basis, as losing value.

BTW: I wonder what increasing inflation would have on the velocity of money in Hussman’s analysis. 

In other words would a small inflation rate kick CEOs in the pants to invest in value creating activities and perhaps be of a long term benefit?


I too think that another reckoning is coming, but I do not know if you and I see the same causes.  To me, a big reason for the size of the 2008 crisis was the 30 year push to deregulate the financial sector.


Here are two comedians sharing their thoughts on the financial crisis.  They are really funny and perhaps a bit worrisome at the same time.  A good explanation as to what happened and a suggestion as to what might happen.  (I think that there was only one major issue that boomeranged on these guys – Spain – but other than that ….)


Bird & Fortune - Silly Money - Investment Bankers



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z70BKwfSUA


Bird and Fortune - Subprime Crisis



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g

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Offline RotBaron

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2015, 09:40:50 PM »
“It’s a racket. Those stock market guys are crooked.”

Al Capone

 :(  :rofl   :uhoh 
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2015, 10:44:11 PM »
Quote from: Brooke link=topic=374473.msg4991?763#msg4991763 date=1441685815
These would all result in enormous boondoggle government spending and waste -- Solyndra times 1000 -- and it would suck the life out of any other productive investments as everyone scrambles to catch the gravy train.

So infrastructure is government spending and waste?  I rather like the freeway system, the electrical grid, water supplies and the Internet among other (wasteful) government programs "that suck the life out of any other productive investments".

With that attitude it's a good thing you're working on your survival supplies.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:48:26 PM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #129 on: September 10, 2015, 07:51:23 AM »
If this is something you really want to do, play with other ppl's $. Get a degree in Accounting or Finance, move to NY or Chicago and take any job on the floor you can get your hands on. Bust tail and get in the door, work on your MS on the side and then become a CFP and start your own business. By then you'll be playing with other ppl's money all day long and have learned to avoid a lot of pitfalls.

The market eats noobs alive, heck it eats experts everyday. I've said this in other threads, it's gambling if you are playing stocks in the short-term.

Nah, I really don't want to be a stock broker. I don't really want to be responsible for peoples money in a market where I cannot actually create growth myself. The market growth or shrinkage is something I could not control and I wouldn't want to test my patience with others on that note.

I mainly mean grow a portfolio myself, once I get a bit more money I'll open a ROTH IRA as another holdings account. So I'll have a 401K, ROTH, and maybe even I'll dabble in a mutual fund. I think investing is going to be the name of the game for my generation if we want to be successful. Working 8-5 in a job that gives you a 2% raise if you are lucky every year  just ain't gonna work for us. I'm getting a huge headstart compared to my friends and colleagues and its crazy how many people couldn't tell you the difference between a Profit and loss statement and a balance sheet.
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Offline Aspen

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #130 on: September 10, 2015, 01:34:45 PM »
I would suggest including something tangible in your portfolio - precious metals, real estate, firearms, etc.  When market swings and political changes throw wrench in paper investments, the right tangible commodities often grow.  Plus, when a paper investment goes to zero, you have nothing.  When your 10 acres is worth nothing, you still have 10 acres. 
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #131 on: September 10, 2015, 03:28:55 PM »
I would suggest including something tangible in your portfolio - precious metals, real estate, firearms, etc.  When market swings and political changes throw wrench in paper investments, the right tangible commodities often grow.  Plus, when a paper investment goes to zero, you have nothing.  When your 10 acres is worth nothing, you still have 10 acres.

That's a good idea, my roommate has been getting to collecting silver. Maybe I should start getting into some of that too, since it is the most affordable commodity for me at the moment. 
The Damned(est. 1988)
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #132 on: September 10, 2015, 03:29:51 PM »
I watched the first vid.  Interesting.  I plan to watch at least another piece or two by him.  I do not know if I’ll end up agreeing with everything he might say.  But he seemed for the most part to have a number of reasoned observations backed up by data that he had processed through the lenses of standard economic methodologies. 

He is a fund manager (Hussman Funds).  He was a pretty big deal back in 2000-2008.  Predicted and dodged both the 2000/2008 crashes.  He screwed up in 2009 thinking the market would crash again because it was over-valued. I believe he was right, however he did not predict the Fed would be as aggressive as it has for 6 years.  He fully admits the error. 

Their original models had only concerned valuation (I think they have that down).  The part they were missing was a model for the risk tolerance of the market.  Extreme valuations can continue for quite some time and even increase as long as there is sufficient risk seeking sentiment in the market. On the other hand, with negative risk sentiment, valuation can fall far below a reasonable value.  The Fed slashed desperately during both the 2000 and 2008 crashes with little effect. 

They now believe they have good models to quantify risk sentiment by measuring various market internals and credit spreads.  Their models are now showing both extreme overvaluation and a worsening risk sentiment.  That’s a really bad combination.  The Fed can push that around with enough effort (i.e. debt), but you can’t fight it forever.  The markets eventually revert towards the mean.

I may not agree with everything he says, but I agree with most.  He puts a technical framework on what I have been suspecting on gut feel.  Missing the last bull market has made him dirt on wallstreet.  A lot of people laugh him off now.   I believe he is the voice in the wilderness right now, but I believe he will be proven right soon.

He has an archive of weekly news letters that are fascinating reads if you are in to it:
http://hussmanfunds.com/weeklyMarketComment.html

I agree that dismantling the regulatory safeguards we put in to place after the Great Depresion was a grave error on our part.  Those were bitterly hard-won lessons our grandparent put into place to spare us the pain they had to go thru.  But we just had to see the elephant for ourselves.  I believe Wallstreet has taken over too large a role in our society.  Too many of our best minds are focused on how to game the market with algorithms and creating paper wealth instead of designing new airplanes or curing cancer. 

I’m a big fan of capitalism, but I do think it needs boundaries to operate within.  Unregulated Capitalism always turns toxic eventually.  I don’t buy Market purist rants any more than I do hardcore Socialists.  The answer is always somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, I’ve seen those Bird&Fortune skits before.  Awesome Brit understated humor. ;)

Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline RotBaron

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #133 on: September 10, 2015, 05:06:39 PM »
Nah, I really don't want to be a stock broker. I don't really want to be responsible for peoples money in a market where I cannot actually create growth myself.

I agree with a lot of your premises.

However, a CFP is far from a broker; clients pay them to manage their estate's investments (not just stocks/funds).

They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline ghi

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Re: Stock markets doom !
« Reply #134 on: September 10, 2015, 06:11:37 PM »
The YouTube is flooded with videos predicting some sort  catastrophic  economic event for Sunday ,September 13th.
The reasons comes from the autor of this book, published in 2012, believes everything in economy goes in 7 years cycles according with......I cant talk about it here,Google it ! Interesting connections.