Author Topic: M-26 Pershing  (Read 3035 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 07:26:39 PM »
No Zimme, you do not have to see your target and you can still put every round on target.

What I do is precisely what the Germans did in WWII. You should be able to figure it out from there.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2015, 04:05:17 AM »
Thats irrelevant. Point is that we have no means to aim when firing indirect fire besides using the fact that this is a game and that we can use FOV etc to overcome the issue.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Chalenge

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2015, 12:42:03 PM »
Wrong. What you are saying we cannot do is precisely what I do. You have the exact same game that I do, so you could do the exact same thing and use the exact same aim that I use to score hits.

So, irrelevant is the wrong word to use.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2015, 03:53:35 PM »
Wrong. What you are saying we cannot do is precisely what I do. You have the exact same game that I do, so you could do the exact same thing and use the exact same aim that I use to score hits.

So, irrelevant is the wrong word to use.
well it is more difficult if you don't tell us your secret!
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2015, 04:42:47 PM »
It's not a secret. You're just not trying to figure it out hard enough.

In surveying (my past career) they call it shooting a backsight. Now, because I have experience in doing that the task of indirect fire is common sense.

If you think you can just drive to any spot on the map and know where to shoot, then you would be wrong.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2015, 07:55:31 PM »
It's not a secret. You're just not trying to figure it out hard enough.

In surveying (my past career) they call it shooting a backsight. Now, because I have experience in doing that the task of indirect fire is common sense.

If you think you can just drive to any spot on the map and know where to shoot, then you would be wrong.
the majority of us don't know how to survey, much less shot a backsight,, so since you have a background in it, it would be awesome if you explained how, but if you'd rather not,, that's fine.
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2015, 08:25:40 PM »
the majority of us don't know how to survey, much less shot a backsight,, so since you have a background in it, it would be awesome if you explained how, but if you'd rather not,, that's fine.


Agreed.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2015, 08:58:00 PM »
Okay, rather than explain how to shoot a backsight (which you won't understand) I will instead explain what the Germans did in WWII.

If the Germans came upon a target that they wanted to shell but there were some structures that they needed intact, then they would recon the area and draw up a map. Then they would lay out the map with coordinate grids so that they might use math (geometry basically) to determine ranges. Then all they needed was one shot on any object in the target area, and then they would know the range to every other target (and bearing for that matter).

In Aces High we have the added benefit of the game telling you any time you destroy an object precisely which object it is that you have destroyed.

Now, as to the survey bit: When you are surveying a piece of property you use a piece of equipment called a theodolite. Today they have instruments that read GPS data, and can even map out structures by shooting millions of laser points and even determine color, but when it comes right down to it the instrument is determining bearing, and elevation. So, you take this instrument into the field and you locate known survey monuments. A monument can be a concrete marker, a nail in a road, or a steel rod in the ground. This is what a surveyor will 'tie' to when he establishes your property lines. That monument will be tied to a second monument just to establish a baseline. Once this is accomplished they will shoot a bearing a given distance according to the property description recorded at your local courthouse. Your property may have only three lines according to description, or many more, just depending on how the property line has been legally defined, but in the end the geometric lines of your property will return to the point of beginning. Then the surveyor can use math to determine if the geometric shape 'closes,' which basically means the total variation of distance around your property (geometrically) is zero (ends up where it began).

So, that's a lot of information that doesn't really help you, right? Well, here is where it does.

Once you have established the distance to a known object on your target then you try to hit the objects on the edge of the field (left and right) in order to determine the offset for your current position on the map. Once you have two known distances to objects on the field you can use Trigonometry to calculate the distance of every known object, or you can go with an estimate (experience makes a difference here). High Explosive rounds give a lot of leeway with this (up to 200 yds but at 200 yds it takes many, many more shots). You really want to get within 50 yds, and with experience you will.

Okay, so you have read a lot of stuff and you still don't know what to do. Well, this last bit I will not be precise on, because if you don't already know this about your tank then you don't deserve to know it. So, if you figure it out please don't pass it on or everyone will be shelling fields from 10k.

When you use indirect fire you do not use your gun sight. Shocking. I know.

So, in order to make this work you will have to find a way to shoot from the Commanders position that uses fixed objects to aim with while using something that will allow you to preset windage and elevation, because there are times when your center reticle will be way, WAY above the horizon. Offset windage comes in handy because there are times when you are not on level ground.

Whiskey, you should be able to figure this out without any more help.

And NO, everything you need is in the game already, so you do not need anything fancy to make this work.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 10:42:34 PM by Chalenge »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2015, 09:39:33 PM »
Okay, rather than explain how to shoot a backsight (which you won't understand)


Well, Chalenge, you put up, so I will shut up.  Thanks for the explanation.

- oldman

Offline WWhiskey

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2015, 11:12:46 PM »
Thanks!  :aok
Flying since tour 71.

Offline JVboob

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2015, 07:37:27 PM »
Yes its true. Unless you  see your target it is all about luck. You can try to aim at a certain height above the horizon but its more trial and error. The gun also move a bit when you fire so you need to reaim after each shot. What we would need is a way of aiming by using direction and elevation so that we could properly  adjust the fire.

whos to say that this isnt avaliable in the game?
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Offline bustr

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2015, 09:06:43 PM »
If you know the diameter of the commander circle in Hitech Mil and you know that say with the tiger in the gun position unzoomd. The bottom of that optical circle is 4000yds. You aim at the offline target set to 4000yds to benchmark what the commanders circle will look like when you jump back from setting up the 4000yd shot. To get the elevation you cannot be zoomed in commander mode. It helps to put out the target on a long flat plain with buildings and tanks at known ranges. Just build a tank gunnery terrain with a single island for offline only use.

As for 10,000yds, that's 5 miles and I just need to add a building to my 7mile tank range at 5 miles for test shooting. Then keep track of where the commander circle is. An overlay acrylic strip that you mark while taped to your monitor will be helpful.

Before we had the hash ladder and Shift-Q for the cruiser and shore batteries, I ranged with the cross then the circle and sank ships out to 24k. At given percentages of zoom the height up my monitor for the cross or ring was a given range. Judging lead was another problem. I was always too lazy to put a movable acrylic sheet with a vertical line to judge lead from. Before the hash ladder I sank one cruiser at 25k in 10 years by turning off the horizon. AHIII won't let us do that.

The map for any given base type will be in known dimensions and destroyable objects can be mapped. Then you keep that next to you with all of the objects labeled from the object app in the arena settings. If you don't know the distances then open the terrain editor and lay down one of the bases and use the coordinates to give you accurate distances between objects. Use the alt setting for each base icon to tell you relative differences in your respective heights from sea level. The bases are pretty much laid out in a standardized grid.

Knowing that a sector is 25mile x 25mile I guess you zoom into some point that you have a base line grid to tell miles, yards maybe feet within 50ft. Or you create an offline terrain where you setup marker objects and you export that to print. I think back in AW Hitech wrote a program that let him drop shells on the back side of the mountain with pinpoint accuracy on an airfield.

One knight player just sat for days in TT offline learning how to indirect fire with the M4 and it's rockets to take down vBases.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 09:51:41 PM »
Bustr, you are making this much harder than it really is. You don't need an acrylic strip or anything else outside of the game itself.

After working this out it should take no more than an hour to master dropping any field. It still helps to have a squaddie with a rearm crate.
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Offline bustr

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2015, 12:49:53 PM »
That's ok, I'm covering everything possible since you like to lead everyone into the desert and leave them there to find the oasis only you seem to know the location. I hope you aren't one of those parents who makes their wife and kids guess what the presents are on Christmas morning before letting them open them only if they guess correctly.

I've known players who use overlays on their monitor, pulled up the bases in the terrain editor and mapped them by the foot, spent hours offline on their favorite GVing maps practicing on the terrain, and players who Kentucky windage like they had a fire control computer and a GPS in their head. And some who worked with friends as bailed pilots forward spotting their rounds for them. And a small few who either walk the maps offline to know all the field orientations or keep a laptop running with a second account playing on the side they are attacking. Big thing is knowing which of the 8 possible orientations the "base object" was set down relative to north by the terrain builder. Once you have that reference point, the rest is on a known unchanging grid.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: M-26 Pershing
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2015, 01:46:56 PM »
I'm sure Hitech is laughing his butt off right now.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.