Buff Defensive Lethality

[Wiley]

Bombers on the deck are very dangerous to attack, because there is a good chance of augering if you have a good amount of closing speed.   Taking away the vertical attack greatly increases the chance the attacker will end up out of energy and behind the bomber.

Beam attacks pretty much negate that though.

Wiley.

[Scca]

Bombers on the deck are very dangerous to attack, because there is a good chance of augering if you have a good amount of closing speed.   Taking away the vertical attack greatly increases the chance the attacker will end up out of energy and behind the bomber.

I agree...  Not having some space under a bomber makes it much harder to get a clean pass without becoming a dirt dart. 

Bombers 3-15K are easy pick'ns, and nerfing their guns would be a mistake IMHO.  If I see bombers upping for base defense, I always coordinate with someone else.  Two on one makes for dead bombers.

[caldera]

Beam attacks pretty much negate that though.

Wiley.

Much harder to do and then repeat when the bombers are on the deck.   You aren't building enough speed in the shallow dive, which you will need to regain alt for each subsequent pass.   

[Wiley]

Much harder to do and then repeat when the bombers are on the deck.   You aren't building enough speed in the shallow dive, which you will need to regain alt for each subsequent pass.

You just need to take a little more time to reset than if the ground wasn't there.  It's a factor, but it doesn't make it impossible.

Wiley.

[caldera]

You just need to take a little more time to reset than if the ground wasn't there.  It's a factor, but it doesn't make it impossible.

Wiley.

Not impossible but as I said, much more difficult.   Harder shot to make and reduced closing speed, coupled with a predictable egress path, puts the fighter much more at risk.   That's why people who gunship aren't afraid to fly them on the deck.   

[The Fugitive]

An old rant but none the less, ive noticed HT is closely monitoring the forums, very pleased to see, thank you!  So i feel that this post will actually be heard by those that can affect change if they so choose.

     Bomber defensive lethality, we all have our opinions on this.  I am one of many people that this sim and the sims before it thrive as well as they do....the enthusiast!  There are many who see it as a video game, I for one do it for the close reality and the attempt to feel 1/1000th of what it was like in war time to be in a ww2 aircraft pitting your skills to stay alive and defend the world as we cherish it.  The graffix are fantastic, best of any with the same playability.  With that being said I would respectfully ask is there anything that can be done with the buff defence gun lethality.  Now lets assume here that im not a dead six straight n level shooter.  That should ward off 90% of the your doing it wrongers!  The reason I ask is because we were in the throws of attempting a base take, a great fun fight, lots of excellent sticks defending furiously and then it starts.  Wave after wave of 17's begin to up for close base defence!  Now if the aircraft was capable of such feats downing multiple fighters each due to some fine gunnery notwithstanding, then there would never have been a need for the invention of fighter aircraft to beginwith.  My gripe is one guy being able to fly the bombers in formations of three and manning every gun!  My suggestion is if you want that type of lethality from bomber guns is have players join in gunnery positions!  If you dont want to be vulnerable and easy pickings fly from a further base and grab bomber alt with defensive fighter cover or just grab higher.  Why do we pander to this videogamey style of exploit?  One guy manning one gun controlling three tail gunner positions im ok with but having every turret that can focus on your fighter being controlled by one guy is not the realism I look for! Certainly using bombers as close base defence isnt a tactic im aware of in the real war time that existed.  Could we address this issue High Tec?  At least water it down a bit, all i see is selling out on the "best ww2 simulator" statemeant and going for "really good" until people who find it tough to learn to fly something else for the task at hand. 

Flame on😳

Salute fellow enthusiasts!

Spin

I think the bolded/underlined  parts are the real issue here. With B17s turnin and a burning on the deck dropping as many fighters as they can only to reup instantly to do it over and over again can really cause issues with a base capture.

As stated, if it was a valid tactic we would have to be ok with it it, but here it is just another instance of "gaming the game".

As for flying at alt, ya, Im guessing the OP is doing it wrong if he cant take out a set of buffs. Like Wiley said, MOST people are doing it wrong. Just fly a few thousand feet away from a set of bufs as you work to get ahead of them. Watch all the guys that come in from behind and get wasted.

[Wiley]

Not impossible but as I said, much more difficult.   Harder shot to make and reduced closing speed, coupled with a predictable egress path, puts the fighter much more at risk.   That's why people who gunship aren't afraid to fly them on the deck.

I'll grant you the point on the harder shot and reduced closing speed as compared to an ideal situation at alt.  The predictable egress path is partly a result of impatience on the part of the fighter pilot though.  While it's true that the ground takes away half of your options, you can still work to make a difficult solution on the way out.

Wiley.

[SpinMan]

Alotta great points!  Having a 20k plus box of buffs should be hard to take down your going into "their element".  109's were bomber killers, granted the cannon replaces the 6 50's, ive raked buffs with TEMPS, Tiffs, Chogs and seen them fly off.  So to say you should take them out each pass is a low percentile probability.  Dont get me wrong ive seeming tapped buffs and set em alight or clipped off a wingtip or they have blown....possibly previously damaged.  To get into effective KILL range your in the danger zone yourself.  The bomber kill records vs fighters in here way out shine the real stats from history...showing the obvious imbalance.   Pandering to the "if we make it harder guys wint fly em".  Dont nerf em, balance them a bit.  The fact they can and are being used as close base defence is imho gameing the game.  Thank you they were the perfect words from what im trying to point out.  Exploit perhaps is a poor choice.  So much time and energy and money is spent on making this as realistic as possible and then we detune things that we have control over like killjng gunnery positions to make the next pass less dangerous than the first if you fail to put enough sustained lead into the exact same panel of metal from 400 plus yds doing 300 plus mph.  Buffs should be dangerous but also on the otherside a poorly planned buff upping should result in the same as a poorly planned dead 6 approach.  Dont make it so easy to "game the game".

Spin

[Wiley]

What you're essentially saying, Spin, is that the bombers should be balanced against a poor attack rather than a decent one.  How do you do that without making them completely helpless against a decent attack?

Wiley.

[SpinMan]

Im pointing out that bombers being used for close base defence is unrealistic.  The reason they are being used in this manner is gaming the game.  Im so gonna overuse that comment:). Low buffs shouldnt have even a nearly equal chance of survival, many many multiple attacks usually ends with one of three fighters surving to finish off a flight   It happens alot!

[pembquist]

SpinMan with respect, If you have some specific way that you want bombers to be changed say it. Your being vague. Also I'd assert that bomber to fighter deaths are really about skill and patience not lopsided armament. If on a base take the bombers are distracting, all your team has to do is destroy the extremely fragile ammo bunkers.

[SpinMan]

Pemb,

1)  Ability to kill gunner positions on buffs, I understand that its possible though I have not yet seen it to be the case and I dont fly buffs so have never experienced the loss of a gun position.  Its not unrealistic to add that realism to a game so much has been put into making it realistic!  Ill turn this around in fact explain to my why gunners cant be killed to make your next pass less risky?  its easier to turret a flak than it is to kill a gunner.  Not realistic.

2)  Have gunnery positions on bombers only fire from an occupied position, I'll meet ya half way here and say if the pilot/bombadier/gunner, since currently one man can do it all, not so realistic, can only fire the guns from the position hes currently in from all three buffs...ie if hes in the tail he may only fire all the tail guns not every gun the software can see you from unless those positions are occupied by another person who joined your buff as was the case in AW, it worked very well there.  DeathStars were a force to be reconned with!

  If ya wanna turn and burn a flight of buffs for close base defence fill it up with guys im good with that.

3)  Id like TWO cup holders in the 38 one simply isnt enough, I like to chase my beers with a shot!

Spin

[Lusche]

Ability to kill gunner positions on buffs, I understand that its possible though I have not yet seen it to be the case and I dont fly buffs so have never experienced the loss of a gun position. 

You should try it and fly them regularly for a while. I guarantee you some of your assumptions, opinions and conclusions will change after that. For example you'd know that you can easily lose your guns...

 

[SpinMan]

your right I should, however for the purpose of this opinion I need to stay fighter side:)  ive been plucked outat the sky abeam by 17's in a 262 closing at near compression below 10k, granted thats a one off but I dont hit buffs that often when in a 262 nor fly within half a sector of a fleet for the same reason.  watching a good gunner plow through several fighters and toddle off smoking with little else wrong tells me there is imbalance.  Just a little tweak:)  comon its xmas:)  with the new Eye candy looking at the pics and vids posted by FLS im thinking I will forget about this tiny little thing while drooling over the simply fantastic graffix!  SA may go for a crap as I admire all the nice shading and those clouds!!!!

Spin

[FLS]

As Lusche said, you can't properly assess bomber lethality unless you both fly them and attack them. Pilot skill is a big factor.