PSA for VR enthusiasts

[Wraith_TMS]

Oculus Rift consumer version (CV1) preorders open on at 8:a.m. PST on 1/6/16 (price apparently not advertised until preorders open), and coincides with the CES 2016 tech show.  Sources: https://www.oculus.com/en-us/blog/oculus-rift-pre-orders-to-open-on-jan-6/ and https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey

Discuss on Reddit/r/oculus, which appears to be melting from aggregate anticipation: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/

(PS: originally posted in Wishlist forum in error (wink wink, nudge nudge)).

FWIW,

[zack1234]

Price?

When it's £200 I will get VR.

I can afford it if it's £500 but I given greedy people enough of my coin.

Pipz has a CRT TV by the way, he is keeping it real

He has a new iced tea maker 

[terrydew]

Price in US is $630 including shipping which starts 3/28. Higher than expected but still cheap when you consider that you get what amounts to a 360 deg dome display which would be 5 or 6 figures.

Terry

[Wraith_TMS]

Price in US is $630 including shipping which starts 3/28. Higher than expected but still cheap when you consider that you get what amounts to a 360 deg dome display which would be 5 or 6 figures.

Terry

I think in absolute terms, you're spot on, Terry---in fact, you may actually be understating its true value. 

Think of it this way: the consumer Rift has dual hi-rez OLED screens: >1080p resolution/per eye with built-in 3D capability (no special glasses need), built-in 6 DOF head tracking (like TrackIR but built in), which means it's literally like having a seamless sphere of monitors around you that immerse you in whatever game you're in, so not just a dome (and it's done without screen bevels).  It has a built-in high-quality DAC/sound system & removable headphones for spacial positioned, head-relative audio (if something makes a sound behind you, it will sound like its behind you, not just stereo).

So, how many 3D capable 22"-24" (or larger) OLED monitors would it take to create a sphere around a person, at say $225-$250/screen?  How many decent video cards would be needed to connect up a sphere of screens to a computer (not to mention cables).  Add the cost of a TrackIR unit, a decent pair of headphones, a DAC, 3D shutter glasses (which the Rift doesn't need) to get 3D on all those monitors, and then the price of bundled games that will come included in the price of the Rift.  If someone were going to build a simpit with all that, yeah, it would be an unholy cost.  But a Rift allows you to get all that for the price of a cheap 3-monitor set-up.  It's probably a fair assessment to call it a bargain, even at $599.

But most folks think of the price in relative terms and it seems steep because Oculus didn't manage people's expectations enough.  The dev kits were sold very cheaply (probably below cost) and there was a general expectation in the VR community that it would be a sub $500 (USD) price point.  The balking comes in because folk weren't adequately prepared by Oculus for that higher price.  It's basically sticker shock. Most people working hard to make a living or who have to justify a big cost to themselves, their wives or parents, will see that price and groan and despair at that expense.

It's a matter of perspective I suppose, and I'm trying to be objective here, because I'm one of those who is groaning right now. 

FWIW,

[Vulcan]

More like bundle shock. Most Rifters do not want all the frills (Xbox controller, game, remote).

I expect Oculus wanted to release a bundle that would give an immediate out of the box experience for retail customers.

I'll wait til the bare CV1 goes on sale.

In the meantime they've sold all their March and April stock out.

[zack1234]

It beats buying a load of monitors.

The price for VR will come down and we will have lots of threads like we do for joysticks.

I have had Track it for 4 years now 

Monitors and headphones are the most problematic part of PCs.

At least AH forums have real people to solve issues

[fracca]

Used the DK2 in Aces High for a while, was good but my neck quickly started hurting in dogfights from looking up and behind all the time. Even just normal flight, it quickly becomes tiring having to physically turn in your seat constantly to check behind. Maybe should have invested in a silk scarf lol. Another thing worth mentioning is when you perform rapid violent manouvers, your body reacts to them instinctively. Perform a loop, and you will feel your dinner heading for your throat. A flat spin becomes a horrific experience that is truly sensory overload and leaves you dizzy, pale and sick. In this respect, the VR pilot is (I believe) always going to be at a disadvantage to his screen flying enemy. You just cant fly as hard as you used to, because your stomach wont let you.

 In bombers however it was pretty incredible, the larger spaces in nose and cockpit, and the ability to easily look around in turrets without rotating it. Looking around blindspots in cockpits bomber and fighter was also pretty handy. The sense of size and scale is much bigger in the Rift, and the boeings really drive this home. They really are huge.

Never tried it on GVs, but i imagine it will be same as in turrets, a much greater degree of SA. Keep meaning to fire it up and jump in a tank but keep forgetting.

[Bizman]

--- the VR pilot is (I believe) always going to be at a disadvantage to his screen flying enemy. You just cant fly as hard as you used to, because your stomach wont let you.---

I fear more that there won't be as good a variety of snacks and beverages available in the cockpit. Also the two hour rule we had as kids after a meal before allowed to go swimming might come into force again.

[Wraith_TMS]

I remembered reading a short quote a long time back from someone at Oculus, in effect stating that the goal of VR is to immerse someone to an extent that, if a real life situation would normally make a person nauseous, then the VR experience should recreate it to _that_ degree.  So, if a roller coaster ride makes you want to vomit in real life, a VR coaster simulation should recreate the experience to the point of making you that queasy too.  What's not acceptable is if the tech itself induces the queasiness; but a well-made simulation could--assuming that's what you're into. 

IMO, VR may not be for everyone and sim sickness can be adjusted to over time.  But let's face it, if one aspires to fly high performance airplanes to their limits as in real life, one had better thicken their stomach linings.  A good VR simulation of such experiences _should_ be that immersive or it's a poor VR simulation ( I hope I don't live to regret this opinion  .).  I think it speaks to AH's fidelity to real life ACM and g-effects that an AH VR pilot might feel it "in the gut" too.  In fact, such feelings might be better feedback than the buffet, blackout/redout indicators and stall horns we're currently provided by the game.

BTW, the consumer rift is said to be significantly lighter--likened to the weight of a baseball cap since it's mostly fabric--than the DK versions, such that whipping heads around to follow targets shouldn't be a problem even after hours of play.

FWIW,

[Wiley]

Used the DK2 in Aces High for a while, was good but my neck quickly started hurting in dogfights from looking up and behind all the time. Even just normal flight, it quickly becomes tiring having to physically turn in your seat constantly to check behind.

Google has failed me, so I'll ask here.  I had assumed it was so but is Rift's head tracking scalable like TrackIR?  I had assumed so but if it's locked 1:1, that kind of kills my interest quite a bit.

Wiley.

[Wraith_TMS]

Google has failed me, so I'll ask here.  I had assumed it was so but is Rift's head tracking scalable like TrackIR?  I had assumed so but if it's locked 1:1, that kind of kills my interest quite a bit.

Wiley.

If I understand your question correctly, Wiley, the answer is no. 

Scaling your movements with TrackIR is needed to represent/fit head movements beyond the FOV of your monitor to fit said monitor, which is of course stationary in front of you.  That isn't needed with the Rift, because the headset will display the game world as if you were in it. For example, turn your head 90 degrees right, and you will see what's in the game world at your 3 o'clock.  No scaling needed; it's 1:1.  It is, however, very precise, because the consumer Rift has tracking LED's on the straps even around the back of the head.  Here is a Youtube video of someone flying a P38 in FSX, to show how it might work/look in AH:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9XjLQYBBbQ

FWIW,

[Wiley]

If I understand your question correctly, Wiley, the answer is no. 

Scaling your movements with TrackIR is needed to represent/fit head movements beyond the FOV of your monitor to fit said monitor, which is of course stationary in front of you.  That isn't needed with the Rift, because the headset will display the game world as if you were in it. For example, turn your head 90 degrees right, and you will see what's in the game world at your 3 o'clock.  No scaling needed; it's 1:1.  It is, however, very precise, because the consumer Rift has tracking LED's on the straps even around the back of the head.  Here is a Youtube video of someone flying a P38 in FSX, to show how it might work/look in AH:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9XjLQYBBbQ

FWIW,

Ah.  I'd imagine someone'll come up with some middleware along the way.  In the meantime it's $600 I get to save I guess.  I don't want to jump around in my chair to check six.

Wiley.

[fracca]

  In fact, such feelings might be better feedback than the buffet, blackout/redout indicators and stall horns we're currently provided by the game.

BTW, the consumer rift is said to be significantly lighter--likened to the weight of a baseball cap since it's mostly fabric--than the DK versions, such that whipping heads around to follow targets shouldn't be a problem even after hours of play.

As far as sensory feedback goesI will explain as best as I poorly can lol. Flying in formation is easy. Not because u can look toward wingman more easy, but because everything in game is HUGE compared to when you are looking on a screen. On a moniter screen it looks as if youre bobbing up and down and moving all over the place, because you can see so many visual references around, both in-game and out, in the rift these movements arent even noticeable. Aircraft seem much bigger, heavier, and slower, and everything happens much slower because of it. Whereas on-screen you were having to concntrate to maintain formation, in the rift it is one handed effortlessness. You dont even have to pay attention other than an occasional glance. Distance becomes a much more tangible thing, like when u look at your wingman next to you, you can no longer  focus on the horizon behind him at same time the way you could on a screen. You have to refocus your eyes past him, and now hes a blur. Same way as looking inside your cockpit requires you to refocus your eyes. This is very noticibly different from on a screen where your eyes remain constant focus, and therefore you have many more visual references at once.

Its exactly this requirement to 'look and focus' on a reference that makes being in a spin so awful, (similarly to real life i would imagine). Every manouvre you make, you really need a reference point to hold onto throughout, something that's not really required with on-screen flying. This apply's to FSX and DCS as well. The huey in DCS is one of my favorite VR activities, but if you lose your visual references, especially on takeoff, you feel like you're in an elevator and the cable just snapped. Same as rolling scissors in AH made me feel when I lost the horizon, or FSX when you drop down into zero visabilty thunderclouds and start getting bounced around.

As far as weight, definetly a good thing to get lighter. DK2 feels pretty light when you first put it on, but after 2-3 hours in Elite you really start to notice it. Worst however is the thick pad around which gets really warm and makes your eye area sweat. (But nowhere else on your face bizzarely).

Google has failed me, so I'll ask here.  I had assumed it was so but is Rift's head tracking scalable like TrackIR?  I had assumed so but if it's locked 1:1, that kind of kills my interest quite a bit.

Wiley.

While I have never seen it, I can almost say with certainty that it will be scalable without too much difficulty. However I've never seen or heard of it being done, and i cant help wonder how your body/mind connection would react to that. 'Sim-sickness' as wiley put it is worst when your body and brain are fighting for 'who is correct'. Soon as you put rift on, EVERYTHING becomes real in front of you, you spend a couple of hours just trying to reach out and grab things. The ease in which control of your eyes and ears dominates your brain is astounding. The sickness occurs when for a split second, your eyes and ears lose 'control' of your reality, and things like your inner ear manage to start an argument. Your eyes and ears are telling your brain that you are upside down in a la7, (and you were believing it) but your inner ear suddenly said 'nah youre sitting in an office chair immobile bud', and you feel like you just fell off a cliff. Very similair to being falling down drunk I found. Anyway, point is, the more realistic the 'feeling' simulation, the less chance of giving inner ear time to argue, (Elite I believe is still considered the greatest success at this, people have played 12 hour sessions in the rift no problem), any sense of 'not real' is punished with game ending nausea. So, to answer the question, yes its doable almost for certain, but a 'simple' change like that could really blow your mind, and not in a good way.

The whole thing has some very unique problems and advantages that are still not fully understood.

[Wiley]

While I have never seen it, I can almost say with certainty that it will be scalable without too much difficulty. However I've never seen or heard of it being done, and i cant help wonder how your body/mind connection would react to that. 'Sim-sickness' as wiley put it is worst when your body and brain are fighting for 'who is correct'. Soon as you put rift on, EVERYTHING becomes real in front of you, you spend a couple of hours just trying to reach out and grab things. The ease in which control of your eyes and ears dominates your brain is astounding. The sickness occurs when for a split second, your eyes and ears lose 'control' of your reality, and things like your inner ear manage to start an argument. Your eyes and ears are telling your brain that you are upside down in a la7, (and you were believing it) but your inner ear suddenly said 'nah youre sitting in an office chair immobile bud', and you feel like you just fell off a cliff. Very similair to being falling down drunk I found. Anyway, point is, the more realistic the 'feeling' simulation, the less chance of giving inner ear time to argue, (Elite I believe is still considered the greatest success at this, people have played 12 hour sessions in the rift no problem), any sense of 'not real' is punished with game ending nausea. So, to answer the question, yes its doable almost for certain, but a 'simple' change like that could really blow your mind, and not in a good way.

The whole thing has some very unique problems and advantages that are still not fully understood.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too.  Maybe I'll revamp my setup to accommodate it if I ever decide to get one.  Just the way my setup is, my upper body's more or less immobilized and you don't seem to get peripheral vision like you do IRL so you'd have to look straight back to check six.

Still would love to try one.

Wiley.

[Wraith_TMS]

As far as sensory feedback goesI will explain as best as I poorly can lol. Flying in formation is easy. Not because u can look toward wingman more easy, but because everything in game is HUGE compared to when you are looking on a screen. On a moniter screen it looks as if youre bobbing up and down and moving all over the place, because you can see so many visual references around, both in-game and out, in the rift these movements arent even noticeable. Aircraft seem much bigger, heavier, and slower, and everything happens much slower because of it. Whereas on-screen you were having to concntrate to maintain formation, in the rift it is one handed effortlessness. You dont even have to pay attention other than an occasional glance. Distance becomes a much more tangible thing, like when u look at your wingman next to you, you can no longer  focus on the horizon behind him at same time the way you could on a screen. You have to refocus your eyes past him, and now hes a blur. Same way as looking inside your cockpit requires you to refocus your eyes. This is very noticibly different from on a screen where your eyes remain constant focus, and therefore you have many more visual references at once.

Its exactly this requirement to 'look and focus' on a reference that makes being in a spin so awful, (similarly to real life i would imagine). Every manouvre you make, you really need a reference point to hold onto throughout, something that's not really required with on-screen flying. This apply's to FSX and DCS as well. The huey in DCS is one of my favorite VR activities, but if you lose your visual references, especially on takeoff, you feel like you're in an elevator and the cable just snapped. Same as rolling scissors in AH made me feel when I lost the horizon, or FSX when you drop down into zero visabilty thunderclouds and start getting bounced around.
...

The whole thing has some very unique problems and advantages that are still not fully understood.

Thanks for clarifying, Fracca; great observations.  Personally, I think your quotes above are fascinating WRT to AH, because it may (almost certainly _will_) require a paradigm shift in how a VR headset player approaches, interacts with, and enjoys the game.  At one level, it will bring back the old arguments of who has the advantage, the monitor-based player, seeking "the edge" or the TrackIR/3-monitor based player, seeking immersion, the sense of presence within the game world and truly being "there".   I tend to be the guy who just wants to fly around and look at the pretty sky, the being "there" guy. (heck, my scores would show that, LOL). 

But I think VR may create an even larger divide in approaches and enjoyment factors in AH.  Your observations of how BIG things look is something that has been said of other games too.  The sense of true scale, in and of itself I believe will have a huge impact on how players perceive this game.  Let's remember, it IS big with huge vistas, endless skies, leviathan-sized airplanes in formation, sprawling ground fortifications and lumbering GVs--our monitors don't do that justice. 

Despite the adjustments my stomach or head will have to make, I look forward to seeing if/how/when HTC supports VR.  I've said it before; I think AH could be _the_ go-to, best VR air combat MMOG around, drawing hundreds of new players, especially now with the game update in the works.  Fun times ahead, I hope.