P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review

[Randy1]

I think you're confusing the motion of the airframe with the force and direction of the lift production.

Like I posted before, a brick can have a lift vector.

[LCADolby]

Like I posted before, a brick can have a lift vector.

Randy is now talking about the P40 

[FLS]

Like I posted before, a brick can have a lift vector.

Good luck with straight and level flight. 

[Puma44]

In rolling scissors I try to put my lift vector behind my opponent.

That is correct and should be the goal. If you see your opponent's  lift vector working toward your tail, it's time to aggressively work yours behind his tail.  If you are successful getting your lift vector behind him, be prepared for a snap shot in the event he doesn't use the vertical to get out of your plane of motion because he is most likely going to over shoot across your nose at close range.   

[Kingpin]

Kingpin,
You say you want to angle your lift vector underneath your opponent?  In rolling scissors I try to put my lift vector behind my opponent. This was how I was "trained" (More like getting beat up in the DA and getting told what I should be doing)....

Is this wrong?

No, you have it right.  The part you missed was that I was talking about one specific case where you "put your lift vector under your opponent when you are trying to turn under your opponent".  (i.e. in a defensive break turn or to help foil a crossing shot).  My general point was that you don't need to be "nose down" to turn under someone's nose, your lift vector just needs to be under them.

You are correct that in a rolling scissors you place your lift vector behind your opponent, because you are trying to remain behind his 3/9 line.  This is another extremely important example of correct lift vector placement, so I'm glad you mentioned it.

In the vertical scissors I was trying to put my lift vector toward the side the other plane was rolling

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the part I highlighted.  I think I get what you're saying, but I want to be sure.  Is there a time in the film you can point to as an example of this?

<S>

[DmonSlyr]

Just curious here. Is there not a word for a plane that can utilize the lift vector better than other planes? For example if Junky was flying a Nik during that fight, he would have been able to create a much steeper lift vector in a more agile way. Some planes are capable of pulling up much more quickly and getting behind the oppoenet on the roll around. Some planes are better in a slow speed rolling scissors. So I'm wondering what is the word for that?

[Puma44]

Just curious here. Is there not a word for a plane that can utilize the lift vector better than other planes? For example if Junky was flying a Nik during that fight, he would have been able to create a much steeper lift vector in a more agile way. Some planes are capable of pulling up much more quickly and getting behind the oppoenet on the roll around. Some planes are better in a slow speed rolling scissors. So I'm wondering what is the word for that?

No, no specific word.  It comes down to the individual pilot and his ability to take advantage of the strengths of his ride and the weaknesses of the opponent.  Out in the fighter world there is a saying that "hamburger is still hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in".    Skill and proficiency are basic to the win.

[FLS]

Just curious here. Is there not a word for a plane that can utilize the lift vector better than other planes? For example if Junky was flying a Nik during that fight, he would have been able to create a much steeper lift vector in a more agile way. Some planes are capable of pulling up much more quickly and getting behind the oppoenet on the roll around. Some planes are better in a slow speed rolling scissors. So I'm wondering what is the word for that?

The better turning plane has a lower stall speed. Since it can produce a given g load at a lower speed it will turn faster.

Turning

[morfiend]

Just curious here. Is there not a word for a plane that can utilize the lift vector better than other planes? For example if Junky was flying a Nik during that fight, he would have been able to create a much steeper lift vector in a more agile way. Some planes are capable of pulling up much more quickly and getting behind the oppoenet on the roll around. Some planes are better in a slow speed rolling scissors. So I'm wondering what is the word for that?

  I would say roll rate!   If you have a plane with a high roll rate,like say a 190 you can effectively roll the A/C to aim the lift vector at the enemy.

  Under positive G's an A/C turns into the lift vector,the soon you can orientate the lift vector at the enemy the soon you can turn into him.

 In a roll scissor fight I am constantly "looking up" and rolling my Aircraft to keep that view on the enemy.


  So an aircraft with a good roll rate can use the lift vector easier than a better turning plane that cant roll so well.


  YMMV!



   

[FLS]

Morfiend I suspect Violatr was talking about vertical turns in the rolling scissors when he used the term steeper lift vector.

You are correct that lift vector is set with roll.   

So we have 3 different interpretations of his question highlighting the importance of proper terminology for communication. 

[morfiend]

Agreed!


  I should have edited the quote,as I was only trying to answer the first sentence!




     

[TequilaChaser]

Violator, the word you are looking for is "Arch", you want to be able to pull a higher(read as--> tighter) arch in your rolling scissors while maintaining your speed and not slowing down, thus pushing your opponent out in front of you for the simple reason they don't recognize what you are doing and are staying in the same roll pattern, being a little more elongated....

I really don't see the "3 different interpretations", only a difference in how it is being said... we all word things different than others, although the same message gets through, from what I have read in the posts......but that's just my opinion

All the Trainers try to stay focused and teach proper bfm, with the only difference is how each individual Trainer words it for their student...

hope this helps

TC  ( btw, no one decided or tried to answer my side question, the answer is right at or before Stall, A prop driven plane is producing maximum thrust with WOT )

[TequilaChaser]

Thank Save for posting the article in Aircraft and vehicles forum:

Angle of Attack describes the angle between the longitudinal axis of the plane – where nose is pointing – and where the aircraft is actually heading – the vector

notice he didn't even include the word "Lift",

so here is your vector, Victor!

http://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/heres-what-ive-learned-so-far-dogfighting-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/

Enjoy

enjoyed the article....

TC

[BuckShot]

What's your vector Victor?

Over under Dunn, over.

And don't call me Shirley.

Sorry, had to

[Gman]

Hey Puma, I wanted to ask you this before, and this thread reminded me - you had mentioned that in the F106 when you didn't have the Genie crowdpleaser missiles loaded, you usually had Aim4s, and that both missiles were very poor options (obviously with the nuclear warhead, haha) for visual range/close fights, and that the gun with the 600 rounds was very important because of this.

That being the case, I wondered if you practiced a lot of BFM/ACM and close range gun fights since the gun was the only reliable/sound option for the F106 if you had an enemy target in close.  If so, what was that like, can you tell me/us a bit about the F106 performance and capability in that arena.