Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[Vraciu]

Touché!   

    

[GScholz]

 

[Zimme83]

Yes, please do.

https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/downloads/12994/f-35_ioc_joint_report_final.pdf

"Executive Summary

Air Force F-35A initial operational capability (IOC) shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support (CAS), Interdiction, and limited Suppression and Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD/DEAD) operations in a contested environment. Based on the current F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) schedule, the F-35A will reach the IOC milestone between August 2016 (Objective) and December 2016 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10-16 aircraft, and US Marines are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35B will reach the IOC milestone between July 2015 (Objective) and December 2015 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Navy F-35C IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10 aircraft, and Navy personnel are trained, manned and equipped to conduct assigned missions. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35C will reach the IOC milestone between August 2018 (Objective) and February 2019 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately."

And what part suggest that launching a missile is enough?

[Serenity]

Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10-16 aircraft, and US Marines are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35B will reach the IOC milestone between July 2015 (Objective) and December 2015 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

"Trained and equipped" means the Aircraft is capable of conducting those missions. The capability to launch a missile is NOT the same thing as conucting air interdiction. The ability to drop a bomb does not mean it is capable of CAS missions.

[GScholz]

Apparently the United States Marine Corps disagrees with you both on this. I'm just a silly foreigner so I'll defer to their judgement.

[Zimme83]

And you are also the guy who are wrong. You have so far not presented anything to support your opinion.

[GScholz]

What opinion would that be?

I believe I've only expressed one opinion on the F-35 and that is that it's a "fantastic machine". An opinion purely based on the plane's aesthetics in the video I posted.

I have no "opinion" of my own of the F-35. How can I? I have nothing to do with it or any reliable info... except that the pilots who fly it like it. I trust their opinions and defer to them.

[Latrobe]

We should seriously scrap the F35 program before it's too late. Our pilots lives are more important than building some broken aircraft. Here's raw footage proving my point. In the video the test pilot was forced to slow down (because of flawed F35 designing) in order to open the weapons bay to test missile capabilities. This resulted in lose of lift due to the F-35's horrible aerodynamics and the resulting crash of the plane. Can't tell from the video if the pilot ejected in time but I sure hope he did. Losing pilot lives just because you want to force a broken plane into service is not acceptable!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXaqMvPQ_oo




An F-16 on the other hand would not have needed to slow down to fire it's weapons and would not have resulted in the destruction of the aircraft. We should look into building more F-16's.

[GScholz]

[Zimme83]

 


Imo the main problem poor management, I'm sure LM do have the capability of develop a good aircraft but instead of sorting the problems out the plane have been rushed into production. Its more about making it looks like they are doing great.
Software issues are one thing, Softwares can always been replaced by new programs. But what I'm worried about is all those basic design flaws that wasn't sorted out in the early development but made it into the production line. Reliability issues, the bomb bay overheating, fuel system cannot handle high G:s, flight control problems etc. These are the thing that will take a lot of time and money to fix at this stage.

[DaveBB]

Scrap the F-35.  Restart development of the FB-22.  It's never too late to cut one's losses.

[GScholz]

[Kazaa]

Is the F-16 even considered a relevant visual range fighter by today's standards?

Seems strange to compare something with 42 year old technology.

[shift8]

 The F-35 is a excellent aircraft. It will perform air to air missions extremely well. Its dogfight performance is mostly besides the point, as most combat now and in the future will take place well beyond visual range. If a dogfight does occur, it will be with HOBS weapons, which make dog fighting a moot point. Even within visual range the age of the dogfight is over. You don't dogfight when you and your opponent are launching 90 degree or 180 degree IR missiles that have 100% flare rejection at each other. You cannot evade that missile. If you are in parameters, you die. This is one of the biggest reasons the USAF and many other air forces DO NOT want to come to a merge: it is too lethal. There is a good chance that everyone dies.

Not to mention alot has to happen for a F-35 to actually GET WVR.

First your enemy has to somehow get past you in BVR. This is possible, but given stealth and superiority in sensors, it is unlikely that a opposing force will get there without extremely high losses. If at All.

Then, once you get past the BVR phase, you the have to actually FIND the F-35 and run it down. Also unlikely. Stealth makes that very hard. And if you find the F-35, running it down is problematic because a loaded Flanker will not run down any clean aircraft with a weapons load. Drag etc. There is also a high possibility that said F-35 is dragging you into his own SAM or friendly fighter support. Anyone chasing a F-35 is going to have to be a full after burner in order to even have a chance of getting to weapons range in a tail chase. Good luck with that.

Assuming you DO get to a visual fight, you then have to get to a point in that fight where kinematic characteristics even matter. With DAS, the F-35 will see you first. His buddies will also see you first. Even with a data-linked Flanker you are going to be at a huge SA disadvantage. IF he sees you first and shoots a aim9x or even makes a gun pass before you are aware: you lose.

All that aside: you might have a chance!

[DaveBB]

The F-35 is a excellent aircraft. It will perform air to air missions extremely well. Its dogfight performance is mostly besides the point, as most combat now and in the future will take place well beyond visual range. If a dogfight does occur, it will be with HOBS weapons, which make dog fighting a moot point. Even within visual range the age of the dogfight is over. You don't dogfight when you and your opponent are launching 90 degree or 180 degree IR missiles that have 100% flare rejection at each other. You cannot evade that missile. If you are in parameters, you die. This is one of the biggest reasons the USAF and many other air forces DO NOT want to come to a merge: it is too lethal. There is a good chance that everyone dies.

Not to mention alot has to happen for a F-35 to actually GET WVR.

First your enemy has to somehow get past you in BVR. This is possible, but given stealth and superiority in sensors, it is unlikely that a opposing force will get there without extremely high losses. If at All.

Then, once you get past the BVR phase, you the have to actually FIND the F-35 and run it down. Also unlikely. Stealth makes that very hard. And if you find the F-35, running it down is problematic because a loaded Flanker will not run down any clean aircraft with a weapons load. Drag etc. There is also a high possibility that said F-35 is dragging you into his own SAM or friendly fighter support. Anyone chasing a F-35 is going to have to be a full after burner in order to even have a chance of getting to weapons range in a tail chase. Good luck with that.

Assuming you DO get to a visual fight, you then have to get to a point in that fight where kinematic characteristics even matter. With DAS, the F-35 will see you first. His buddies will also see you first. Even with a data-linked Flanker you are going to be at a huge SA disadvantage. IF he sees you first and shoots a aim9x or even makes a gun pass before you are aware: you lose.

All that aside: you might have a chance!

History has time and time again shown what you are saying to be erroneous.  There will always be within-visual-range dogfights as long as humans have eyes.