Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 92660 times)

Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #210 on: April 17, 2016, 11:49:51 AM »
ECM also works..

ECM generally does not defeat missiles. It prevent their being fired in the first place. With the exception of a reletively new capability to line-item jam incoming seeker heats or even fry them with some of the newer US AESA's, ECM does not spoof missiles in that manner.

Once you burn through jamming it no longer has any effect. ECM is not some cloud of doom that reduces missile effectiveness.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #211 on: April 17, 2016, 12:33:37 PM »
Production is ramping up in Europe.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #212 on: April 17, 2016, 12:50:00 PM »
I thought I posed quite a good question which was not addressed about the F-22  :old:

Production is ramping up in Europe.

The Italian one will be faster obviously but the electric windows won't work after 100 kilometres and they'll be later found to have illegal traction control software.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #213 on: April 17, 2016, 04:04:45 PM »
 :rofl :aok
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #214 on: April 17, 2016, 04:34:02 PM »
Just because they used missiles capable of BVR doesn't mean the kills were BVR.  Nice try.

Some people can't get their heads out of Vietnam it seems. By the late '80s BVR was already dominant, both doctrinal and in practice. IFF systems have vastly reduced the risk of friendly fire in BVR situations. In 1991 it was put to the test and most air-to-air kills in that war was with BVR missiles, even those fired by the Iraqi air force.

A2A victories in chronological order: (BVR missiles in bold.)

US F-15Cs shoot down two MiG-29 and three Mirage F1 in two separate engagements. All with AIM-7 missiles.

Iraqi MiG-25s engage a flight of F/A-18Cs with R-40 missiles scoring one kill.

US F/A-18s shoot down two MiG-21s. One with AIM-7 and the other with AIM-9.

US EF-111 scored a maneuver kill on a Mirage F1.

Iraqi MiG-23 damage two F-111 with R24 missiles.

Iraqi MiG-29 damage one F-111 with an R60 missile and a B-52 with an R27 missile.

US F-15Cs shoot down two MiG-29s with one AIM-7 and one AIM-9. After the first MiG was killed the IFF malfunctioned in Rodriguez's F-15C. The Americans initially thought they had shot down a coalition aircraft and held their fire allowing the second MiG to engage them in a dogfight. An AIM-9 ended that dogfight.

US F-15Cs shoot down two Mirage F1s with AIM-7 missiles.

Saudi F-15Cs shoot down two Mirage F1 with AIM-9 missiles.

US F-15Cs kill three MiG-23s with AIM-7 missiles.

US F-15Cs shoots down three MiG-23 and one Mirage F1 trying to flee to Iran. They used an unspecified mix of AIM-7 and AIM-9 missiles.

US F-15C kills a MiG-23 with an AIM-7.

Another US F-15C kills a MiG-23 with AIM-7.

A lone US F-15C kills two MiG-21s with AIM-7 missiles after they both engage him. These MiGs were escorting Su-25s and the F-15 gives chase and shoots down both with AIM-9 missiles.

US A-10 shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

US F-14 kills a Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile.

US F-15Cs shoot down two Su-22s and one Su-7 as they attempt to flee to Iran. All with AIM-7 missiles.

US F-15C shoots down a Mi-24 gunship with an AIM-7 missile.

US F-15Cs kill two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles.

US F-15E Strike Eagle dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. (Ouch!)

US A-10A shoots down Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

And that concludes the A2A kills of the 1991 Gulf War.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #215 on: April 17, 2016, 04:56:41 PM »
"26 Jan: Draeger-Shiavi-Rodriguez. This triplet of kills was a "textbook" BVR offensive sweep, with the four CITGO F-15Cs (the fourth was flown by Bruce Till) picking up four MiG-23s and bouncing three (one of them returned to H-2 early in the intercept, presumably because of mechanical problems). The targets were sorted and shot at by all four F-15s at over 13 miles (Till's AIM-7 arrived slightly after the others and thus he did not receive a kill credit)."

The other fight Rodriguez had with the MiG-29 after his IFF malfunctioned is often cited as the only turning fight of the war.
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Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #216 on: April 17, 2016, 05:04:33 PM »
You seem remarkably well-informed Shift8. May I ask you then, if all you say is true, I'm curious why the YF-22 design was selected over the YF-23, an apparently faster and more stealthy proposition with considerably longer range (by almost a third again) - but less manoeuvrable. The answer could of course be political / economic, a pre-disposition to Lockheed Martin, perceived versus known technical doubt etc.

Especially the 2D thrust vectoring on the YF/F-22 is a rather odd design feature is it not? Heavy, complex, expensive and in the light of what you're saying, redundant?

Sorry I actually missed seeing this post. Thanks for the compliment, and your question is indeed a good one.

The Raptor is an extension of a correct mentality that weapons systems should be designed to cover every contingency to a extreme degree. It was designed to win every fight, regardless of the geometry of it. I agree with this philosophy. I did not agree with the cancellation of the aircraft. As the airforce stated recently, I believe in winning 100-0. Not 51-49.

The superior kinematics of the F-22 however are not just a WVR issue. The F-22's ability to fly extremely fast with and without AB is a MASSIVE plus in BVR combat. The faster and higher you are when you fire a aim-120, the further it goes. Raptors are known for flying undetected at 50,000ft plus at mach 1.8. For any 4th generation fighter to do this, they would have to be very nearly clean and be in full AB. Kinematics, particularly speed and altitude, are still important.

As for TV, there is a case to be made for its removal. If I recall correctly, even the USAF had debated this recently. However, in BVR kinematics are also important for missile evasion. There are limits to how much increased agility assists in missile defeat, but in some scenarios TV would allow for much better supersonic maneuvering than a figher without. It may also help with certain low speed terminal defenses. Essentially, there ARE some some circumstances where better maneuver would help in BVR.

The F-22 is in ideal aircraft in other words. It is a perfect expression of the ultimate aerial killing machine. It covers all the bases, and does it 2x better than anything else in virtually any area.

So why the F-35 you might wonder? Several reasons. First, we need a cheaper multi-role plane to augment F-22's. Second, the F-22 got canceled. And Third, if I cant get more raptors Ill take the next best thing.

First thing to get out of the way----the F-35 IS cheaper. Its actual cost per plane is comparable to many 4th and 4.5 gen fighters. The reason for people claiming ridiculous figures for its price are due to 1) including the cost of development in the price per plane, 2) including the cost of maintenance and fuel for the next 2 decades or so in the cost per plane, 3)The F-35 is being far more scrutinized that past projects and is using a concurrency path of development which no other US fighter has done. This leads to false comparisons.

The F-35 is like a F-16 to a F-15. The Eagle is better: but the F-16 fleshes out the ranks and is still much more capable than the competition. Based on its known performance figures, it will be alot like a F-18 in terms of a dogfight. Less than ideal sustained turn, excellent high AoA inst turn. But with F-16 like straight line acceleration, especially when you compare to loaded 4.5 gen fighters.

Essentially, the F-35 is a more economical augment that the USAF badly needs to finally replace the bulk of its legacy fighters. It will be FAR FAR superior in BVR to any 4.5 gen fighter, which will constitute most engagements. It will terrorize any non-stealth aircraft in nearly any situation. IF a dogfight does happen, it will still be extremely capable. Todays WVR missiles mean that the best fighter is the one that finds the other person first and looses a missile so that you can get out of dodge before a merge actually occurs. DAS and the AIM9X make this almost a certainty when combined with stealth.

Kinematically in BVR, the F-35 will be about equal to things like the Eurofighter, Su-30, or Rafale. All 3 of those planes claim to supercruise, but not by the Lockheed definition necessarily. A clean F-35 can SC in the technical sense, as in more than mach 1 without AB. Even a clean F-15 can do this without AB. The big difference is that a Su-30 has to carry its stores externally. So even if it could SC at more than Mach 1.5 (the LM definition) it will NOT do so with a ton a missiles and stuff. So in this sense the F-35 is comparable. When you consider that on top of this the F-35 has a much better Radar and is stealthy, you have a much superior overall aircraft.

So in summary, the F-35 is not as good as a F-22, but is still far better than the competition.



Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #217 on: April 17, 2016, 05:09:54 PM »
Just because they used missiles capable of BVR doesn't mean the kills were BVR.  Nice try.

Praytell, what do you consider "BVR"?

BVR is more a description of the tactics involved  than the visual nature of the fight. Pilots can sometimes see fighters from 25nm. Is that fight now suddenly WVR? No.

I can be a mere 3nm from you and the fight is still basically BVR. If there is no merge we are still having a missile lobbing and evasion contest. It is not a dogfight. And until the merge, it doesn't matter really who has the best turn rate etc.

So, nice try.  :D

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #218 on: April 17, 2016, 05:15:11 PM »
Some people can't get their heads out of Vietnam it seems. By the late '80s BVR was already dominant, both doctrinal and in practice. IFF systems have vastly reduced the risk of friendly fire in BVR situations. In 1991 it was put to the test and most air-to-air kills in that war was with BVR missiles, even those fired by the Iraqi air force.

Of the kills 69% were with BVR missiles, and 31% were not. Of those 69% of BVR missiles there is no information provided at what range those shots were made.

Also worth noting is that the Iraqis were in a complete mess. The coalition dominated the air and radio waves.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 05:16:51 PM by Vulcan »

Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #219 on: April 17, 2016, 05:24:58 PM »
Of the kills 69% were with BVR missiles, and 31% were not. Of those 69% of BVR missiles there is no information provided at what range those shots were made.

Also worth noting is that the Iraqis were in a complete mess. The coalition dominated the air and radio waves.

There is tons of info out on the ranges and other geometry considerations of the gulf war engagements. TONS.

Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #220 on: April 17, 2016, 08:21:56 PM »
A great many of you have some very funny concepts of how these modern airplanes perform. Do us all a favor please and get a copy of a F-16 or F-15 -1 and read it through before posting any more one how these planes perform with stores on. You can get these rather easily on the internet.

snip

Sorry for the tone of this post. But (some) of you sound like you walked in here after reading 25 "war is boring" articles that you topped off with RAND's Pacific Defense review, and a AIDS inducing amount of Dr. Karlo Kopp.

Shift8 do you have any fighter time?  If so, how many hours and in what aircraft?

I didn't have to find a copy of the F-15E dash-1, or the -34 or even 3-1, on the internet.  They were issued to me or were required reading in the vault during my time as an F-15E pilot, and I have a bit of dissimilar and multi-ship air to air training in my logbook, so maybe that's good enough to skip the internet study part.

I may not quibble with all of your points one by one, but I'll drop a few generic observations and some specific arguments in here, if that's ok with you since you seem to be the expert.

First, the F-35 is in my deeply considered opinion a flawed compromise design, like most of our other "joint" tactical aircraft.  It has the mission of an F-15E, A-10, F-16, and probably a navy battleship, shoehorned into a package compact enough to fit on a carrier and handicapped with a single engine in order to save money from not buying a second one.  It has numerous outstanding critical flaws like not being able to keep the weapons bay cooled during ground ops, and even when "full up" it won't be able to do any of those purported missions it is intended for with anything like the competence of the planes it is intended to replace.  It can't do all-weather night low altitude deep precision strike like an F-15E, can do hardly ANY of the air superiority of the F-15C or even air defense F-16 variants due to low endurance, low speed, poor maneuverability and low weapon loadout, it doesn't have any BRRRRT or even half the loadout, loiter time, or damage tolerance of an A-10, and to top it off even if they sell thousands of them they'll still cost more per aircraft than a one for one replacement of the legacy airframes I've mentioned.

BVR is the order of the day, except when your ROE requires positive ID against non-cooperative targets or bandits in a complicated air picture, then its ACM and BFM.

The F-35 is going to be slow and will run out of gas when sprinting (running away bravely, to quote monty python), so a real air defense fighter will be able to chase it down and shoot it in its fat non-stealthy butt on egress.  Same with any SAMs that survive the initial strike, and there WILL BE surviving sams as our potential adversaries have been paying close attention to what works and what doesn't as we've taken apart (or attempted to take apart) numerous IADS over the last 25 years.

I know a number of ways to defeat radar missiles.  Your statement pretty much implies that you do not actually know how radar missile employment or shot doctrine works, in part because you are incorrect, and in part because of your dismissive assumptions about their effectiveness.  I'll have to leave it at that due to *reasons*.

Stealth is just one more feature of a weapon system, and anyone assuming it actually works in combat either doesn't know how it works or has been ignoring development of counter-stealth technology and systems.  You can't find the requisite info to intelligently discuss it on the internet or in commercial circulation no matter how hard you look, unless you take a fairly specific set of courses at a limited number of universities, and even then you won't know anything about the tactical implications.  If you possessed that info, you wouldn't be discussing it anyhow.

SA trumps kinetics unless you have a mission to accomplish and the only way through the door is to kick it down.  Then the guy with the biggest stick (or most sticks) may not "win" but you're still gonna gonna suffer losses getting thru the door.  Or keeping the other guy from coming in YOUR door.  Guess what used to keep me up at night when I was responsible for a certain what-if scenario...  1000 cannon-equipped and obsolete fighters streaming south from North Korea.  We'd run out of missiles and bullets before we got half of them, even if we could individually track and engage each one with optimum efficiency.  Then you can have all the SA in the world, but the survivors are gonna strafe your O-Club and your chow hall when you run out of the kinetics you pass off as unnecessary.  Buying a lot of new fighters with half the missile loadout of the ones we have isn't the way to win that fight.

A clean F-35 will be facing "heavy" 4th gen fighters that can still out-turn and out-stick them, may out-number them, and will likely have the speed to run them down when the clean F-35s run out of missiles and turn to run.  Hopefully we'll still have enough F-15s to bail them out when that happens.

As for a merge being a randomized blender of death, that's possible however training, intuitive systems integration, raw aircraft performance, and weapons that are awesome in a knife-fight can and have made all the difference about who wins.

That said, the F-35 is a grand experiment taking a rather large step into a truly sensor and system fused approach to tactical situational awareness.  While some nifty PR talking points like the stupid touch screen (you'd know why it is stupid if you've ever had to put your finger on a switch while pulling anywhere from -2 to +9 Gs or flying a night low level in moderate to severe turbulence) come across as retarded to many of those of us who flew what is STILL our newest and still worlds best strike fighter (F-15E), the *intent* of the data fusion is a laudable goal.  I hope they achieve even 10% of what they set out to gain with the F-35.  The problem is, and will remain, the fact that they chose a half-assed deeply compromised "joint" airframe design as the platform with which to experiment with on the path to this data fused tactical SA revolution.  It won't meet any of the services actual needs, and the requirement to make this huge leap in technology and software while fighting "simple" problems we solved 30 years ago like bomb bay temperatures and avionics cooling, is crippling the program.  It may never recover or achieve its goals.  Even if it meets its technology targets, it will still remain a deeply compromised tactical platform due to the handcuffs imposed by the joint nature of the development and procurement program.  We should have learned our lesson with the last several joint program disasters, but we didn't.

An F-15E replacement needs to be FAST, carry a LOT of weapons and fuel, maneuverable enough to hold its own, be able to do the hardest mission without compromise (low level night all-weather deep precision strike with or without nukes) and new technology be damned, it needs a seat for a WSO because that hardest mission is, well, HARD.
An F-16 replacement needs to carry a reasonable amount of weapons, be cheaply operated, and be able to turn up its own butt.
An A-10 replacement needs  BRRRRRT, long loiter time, damage tolerance, and a huge CAS weapons loadout.

The F-35 has none of this.  What it does have going for it is manufacturing presence in an awful lot of congressional districts, and a tentative buy order from a dozen or more nations who are horrified that we're putting all our eggs in this particular basket, but who also have few or no options.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 08:27:44 PM by eagl »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #221 on: April 17, 2016, 08:28:35 PM »
I may not quibble with all of your points one by one


Well, you two have my attention now.

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Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #222 on: April 17, 2016, 08:34:01 PM »
Praytell, what do you consider "BVR"?

BVR is more a description of the tactics involved  than the visual nature of the fight. Pilots can sometimes see fighters from 25nm. Is that fight now suddenly WVR? No.

I can be a mere 3nm from you and the fight is still basically BVR. If there is no merge we are still having a missile lobbing and evasion contest. It is not a dogfight. And until the merge, it doesn't matter really who has the best turn rate etc.

So, nice try.  :D

Mostly you're wrong.  Somewhere inside 20-25nm, even in the F-15E, is the visual arena and the character of the engagement changes.  There are reasons why this is true, that are only partly due to being able to see the enemy fighter. But if you haven't done it or aren't familiar with how fighter radars and missiles work with tactical considerations to develop shot doctrine and tactics, you won't understand what I'm talking about.  In my experience, this transition of how the fight changes between 30 and 15 miles is a major shortfall in many modern combat flight simulators, because tactics that *should* be extremely effective usually don't work in the games. Unfortunately my only attempt to influence this started and ended with Janes F-15 and I found out later that I almost got in trouble over that...

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Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #223 on: April 17, 2016, 08:50:38 PM »
Shift8 do you have any fighter time?  If so, how many hours and in what aircraft?

I didn't have to find a copy of the F-15E dash-1, or the -34 or even 3-1, on the internet.  They were issued to me or were required reading in the vault during my time as an F-15E pilot, and I have a bit of dissimilar and multi-ship air to air training in my logbook, so maybe that's good enough to skip the internet study part.

I may not quibble with all of your points one by one, but I'll drop a few generic observations and some specific arguments in here, if that's ok with you since you seem to be the expert.

First, the F-35 is in my deeply considered opinion a flawed compromise design, like most of our other "joint" tactical aircraft.  It has the mission of an F-15E, A-10, F-16, and probably a navy battleship, shoehorned into a package compact enough to fit on a carrier and handicapped with a single engine in order to save money from not buying a second one.  It has numerous outstanding critical flaws like not being able to keep the weapons bay cooled during ground ops, and even when "full up" it won't be able to do any of those purported missions it is intended for with anything like the competence of the planes it is intended to replace.  It can't do all-weather night low altitude deep precision strike like an F-15E, can do hardly ANY of the air superiority of the F-15C or even air defense F-16 variants due to low endurance, low speed, poor maneuverability and low weapon loadout, it doesn't have any BRRRRT or even half the loadout, loiter time, or damage tolerance of an A-10, and to top it off even if they sell thousands of them they'll still cost more per aircraft than a one for one replacement of the legacy airframes I've mentioned.

BVR is the order of the day, except when your ROE requires positive ID against non-cooperative targets or bandits in a complicated air picture, then its ACM and BFM.

The F-35 is going to be slow and will run out of gas when sprinting (running away bravely, to quote monty python), so a real air defense fighter will be able to chase it down and shoot it in its fat non-stealthy butt on egress.  Same with any SAMs that survive the initial strike, and there WILL BE surviving sams as our potential adversaries have been paying close attention to what works and what doesn't as we've taken apart (or attempted to take apart) numerous IADS over the last 25 years.

I know a number of ways to defeat radar missiles.  Your statement pretty much implies that you do not actually know how radar missile employment or shot doctrine works, in part because you are incorrect, and in part because of your dismissive assumptions about their effectiveness.  I'll have to leave it at that due to *reasons*.

Stealth is just one more feature of a weapon system, and anyone assuming it actually works in combat either doesn't know how it works or has been ignoring development of counter-stealth technology and systems.  You can't find the requisite info to intelligently discuss it on the internet or in commercial circulation no matter how hard you look, unless you take a fairly specific set of courses at a limited number of universities, and even then you won't know anything about the tactical implications.  If you possessed that info, you wouldn't be discussing it anyhow.

SA trumps kinetics unless you have a mission to accomplish and the only way through the door is to kick it down.  Then the guy with the biggest stick (or most sticks) may not "win" but you're still gonna gonna suffer losses getting thru the door.  Or keeping the other guy from coming in YOUR door.  Guess what used to keep me up at night when I was responsible for a certain what-if scenario...  1000 cannon-equipped and obsolete fighters streaming south from North Korea.  We'd run out of missiles and bullets before we got half of them, even if we could individually track and engage each one with optimum efficiency.  Then you can have all the SA in the world, but the survivors are gonna strafe your O-Club and your chow hall when you run out of the kinetics you pass off as unnecessary.  Buying a lot of new fighters with half the missile loadout of the ones we have isn't the way to win that fight.

A clean F-35 will be facing "heavy" 4th gen fighters that can still out-turn and out-stick them, may out-number them, and will likely have the speed to run them down when the clean F-35s run out of missiles and turn to run.  Hopefully we'll still have enough F-15s to bail them out when that happens.

As for a merge being a randomized blender of death, that's possible however training, intuitive systems integration, raw aircraft performance, and weapons that are awesome in a knife-fight can and have made all the difference about who wins.

That said, the F-35 is a grand experiment taking a rather large step into a truly sensor and system fused approach to tactical situational awareness.  While some nifty PR talking points like the stupid touch screen (you'd know why it is stupid if you've ever had to put your finger on a switch while pulling anywhere from -2 to +9 Gs or flying a night low level in moderate to severe turbulence) come across as retarded to many of those of us who flew what is STILL our newest and still worlds best strike fighter (F-15E), the *intent* of the data fusion is a laudable goal.  I hope they achieve even 10% of what they set out to gain with the F-35.  The problem is, and will remain, the fact that they chose a half-assed deeply compromised "joint" airframe design as the platform with which to experiment with on the path to this data fused tactical SA revolution.  It won't meet any of the services actual needs, and the requirement to make this huge leap in technology and software while fighting "simple" problems we solved 30 years ago like bomb bay temperatures and avionics cooling, is crippling the program.  It may never recover or achieve its goals.  Even if it meets its technology targets, it will still remain a deeply compromised tactical platform due to the handcuffs imposed by the joint nature of the development and procurement program.  We should have learned our lesson with the last several joint program disasters, but we didn't.

An F-15E replacement needs to be FAST, carry a LOT of weapons and fuel, maneuverable enough to hold its own, be able to do the hardest mission without compromise (low level night all-weather deep precision strike with or without nukes) and new technology be damned, it needs a seat for a WSO because that hardest mission is, well, HARD.
An F-16 replacement needs to carry a reasonable amount of weapons, be cheaply operated, and be able to turn up its own butt.
An A-10 replacement needs  BRRRRRT, long loiter time, damage tolerance, and a huge CAS weapons loadout.

The F-35 has none of this.  What it does have going for it is manufacturing presence in an awful lot of congressional districts, and a tentative buy order from a dozen or more nations who are horrified that we're putting all our eggs in this particular basket, but who also have few or no options.

Interesting that 3 F-16 pilots I know have told me exactly the opposite of everything you just said. Same goes with general statements made by the USAF over the last 20 years. In addition to the 3 I know personally, almost every statement I have seen from USAF pilots has been the opposite of what you just said. Everything I have stated here come from either consultation with actual USAF pilots, or from official documentation. You will have to excuse me if I disregard your outlier opinion. To change my mind your going to have to have alot more to go on that patronizing assumptions that you are the only fighter pilot I have conversed with.

Your statement about radar and stealth is just plain nonsense. There is plenty of available information in peer-review journals and other sources.

Your pricing information is wrong or taking out of context. The F-35 when adjusted for inflation and the fact that many of the legacy platforms you mentioned are 30+ years old is somewhat more expensive than others, cheaper than some, and equivalent to some. And even if it were more expensive: you get what you pay for.

Your mention of the "problems" the plane is having are normal developmental issues. The issue here is the concurrency method of acquisition, not the engineering itself.

Your statements about missile effectiveness are the opposite of the professional opinion of other pilots I have consulted extensively. They are in opposition to physics. And they are in opposition to historical record.


Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #224 on: April 17, 2016, 08:53:15 PM »
Mostly you're wrong.  Somewhere inside 20-25nm, even in the F-15E, is the visual arena and the character of the engagement changes.  There are reasons why this is true, that are only partly due to being able to see the enemy fighter. But if you haven't done it or aren't familiar with how fighter radars and missiles work with tactical considerations to develop shot doctrine and tactics, you won't understand what I'm talking about.  In my experience, this transition of how the fight changes between 30 and 15 miles is a major shortfall in many modern combat flight simulators, because tactics that *should* be extremely effective usually don't work in the games. Unfortunately my only attempt to influence this started and ended with Janes F-15 and I found out later that I almost got in trouble over that...

There are a whole lot of dismissive remarks in these posts. Namely "if you havent done it you wont know what im talking about"   Care to actually explain? So far your havent given me a good reason to take your word over many people who have given me far more specific reasons to believe theirs.